The new PaperWhite snuck out! Incremental update

[GoSharks]

Originally Posted by latepaul

I think saying folders have been around a long time is misleading. For most of that time computer users were in the minority. For the period when most people began to use PCs many used them in a very limited way and still found them confusing. A power-user might be someone who actually knew how to create and organise folders. The everything-on-the-desktop types are the people who breathed a huge sigh of relief when tablets appeared.

During those pre-computer days what did people use? Oh yeah, wait for it...filing cabinets with folders to organize them. Straight forward concept. I'd hate to see the tops of the physical desks that these 'everything-on-the-desktop types' use at work.

Originally Posted by Katsunami

The Boomers / Gen X created that stuff, which is even harder than just using it.

It just goes to show that they (we) are a lot smarter than the current generation.

Spoiler:

OK, I couldn't resist so shoot me

Good one. I would only add that we don't feel ENTITLED either. We were taught to suck it up and figure it out. Our mommies didn't hover over us like a helicopter doing all our tasks for us! Bwahahahah!!

Originally Posted by GoSharks

During those pre-computer days what did people use? Oh yeah, wait for it...filing cabinets with folders to organize them. Straight forward concept. I'd hate to see the tops of the physical desks that these 'everything-on-the-desktop types' use at work.

I remember seeing the concept of directories/folders and thinking how natural a metaphor it was. It didn't require a rocket science degree to figure out!

[BelleZora]

Originally Posted by Katsunami

The Boomers / Gen X created that stuff, which is even harder than just using it.

It just goes to show that they (we) are a lot smarter than the current generation.

Spoiler:

OK, I couldn't resist so shoot me

My first computer was an 8088 purchased in 1985. I had to learn Dos, some Basic, how to write batch files...nothing was user-friendly. Those days were fun and challenging. I don't for a moment think my generation was smarter than the succeeding generations (yea, I know you were kidding, Katsunami), but I am irritated by being on the receiving end of assumptions and condescension when I stop into Best Buy.

Edit: ok, this is an off-topic tangent. Sorry. Probably a sore subject and pushed a button.

[latepaul]

Originally Posted by jswinden

Much of that sounds like nonsense to those of us who are old enough to remember the pre-PC era. As PCs became popular in homes people had to learn the concept of directories/folders or they wouldn't have been able to run a DOS PC/Apple II/etc. Command line DOS required knowing where your files were placed. Even those who used Windows and Mac OS later on had to know where to locate their personal files. I have no doubt that the youngest generation of adults might be confused by directories/folders, but Gen X and the Boomers figured that crap out a LONG time ago.

Not all of them did. I was there. I remember helping people who really couldn't figure out what seemed to me very simple stuff.

And compared to the number of people who have smartphones and ereaders the number of people who had DOS-based computers was a lot less. And of those that did an awful lot of them had a very specific series of steps they went through to access their programs. A different boot disc if they were using Wordstar versus playing a game. And if they hit anything unusual they'd call their friend that knows about computers i.e. me.

Of course there were plenty of people who could figure out folders etc but there were lots more who couldn't or who just avoided using PCs all together.

[latepaul]

Originally Posted by GoSharks

During those pre-computer days what did people use? Oh yeah, wait for it...filing cabinets with folders to organize them. Straight forward concept. I'd hate to see the tops of the physical desks that these 'everything-on-the-desktop types' use at work.

And those folders were much simpler (not nested for a start) and despite what seems like the "obvious" nature of the metaphor a lot of people who could file a piece of paper correctly just could "get it" when applied to pixels on a screen. Again, I'm not speculating here, I was there, I saw it.

[Katsunami]

Originally Posted by latepaul

And those folders were much simpler (not nested for a start) and despite what seems like the "obvious" nature of the metaphor a lot of people who could file a piece of paper correctly just could "get it" when applied to pixels on a screen. Again, I'm not speculating here, I was there, I saw it.

Nothing changed in 20 years. Not having any physical things to work with is *still* confusing for many people. I have a feeling that many of those people also have a hard time understanding abstract stuff, but that's just a hunch; I don't know this for sure.

I think that many people who had problems with computers/files/folders back in the day, then had problems with "phone books" in mobile phones, then had problems with MP3 files, will now have problems with e-readers.

[latepaul]

Originally Posted by Katsunami

I think that many people who had problems with computers/files/folders back in the day, then had problems with "phone books" in mobile phones, then had problems with MP3 files, will now have problems with e-readers.

Exactly my point. But where in the past they could avoid PCs if they felt like it, now these devices are everywhere. And so they gravitate towards the ones that feel (whether they are in fact or not) less complicated. And this includes a lot of people who in the past could have, with some effort, figured PCs out. But it felt like work and that's not what you want from a device designed for leisure use.

And the question is - does Amazon, Kobo, Sony etc, want these people as customers? Are they willing to make things look and feel a little simpler in order to woo them?

[GoSharks]

Originally Posted by latepaul

Again, I'm not speculating here, I was there, I saw it.

See you and raise you a few.... I lived through it too and the people I worked with that didn't 'get it', didn't want to 'get it'. I don't see many of them with e-readers today either -- so I doubt they're a target for the makers. (I think Darwin had a discussion about that in the abstract!)

Oh, and nested folders, my filing cabinet had those too.

[Katsunami]

Originally Posted by latepaul

And the question is - does Amazon, Kobo, Sony etc, want these people as customers? Are they willing to make things look and feel a little simpler in order to woo them?

I don't know. If you make it simpler, then there will just be a new group of people for which the device will still be too difficult. There *are* people that get scared out of their mind if something has a screen and/or more than one button, you know. I know several of them.

You know those newer printers, that only "show you the buttons you need for any given task"? Worst thing that could ever happen. I supported them while at a help desk. Many of the people who called couldn't make heads or tails of them because the touch display kept changing.

People don't seem to think: "I want to copy a document, and enlarge it, and make the text blacker. So, I'll need to put it into the printer, then press ENLARGE (action: find the "enlarge" button or menu item), enter 150% and hit ENTER (always need to confirm), then press CONTRAST (find the "Contrast" button or menu item..."

They think like this: "I put the document into the printer. Then I press the second button on the third row. Then I enter 1, 5, 0, and press the green button in the bottom right corner. Then I press the fourth button on the third row...."

You could actually remove all the markings from the front of the printer, and they'll still be able to use it... as long as you don't move the buttons.

In short, these people don't UNDERSTAND. For some reason, you can explain such a device once, five times, or 250 times, but it'll bever improve. It does not make a difference. As soon as there's a new printer at the office, they'll have to start all over again because some buttons moved.

These same people will never be able to use an e-reader. As soon as there's a firmware update that adds some new functions and changes the menu a bit here and there, their brain explodes.

Maybe there are just some people that are not cut out to handle technology, in the same way as I'm not able to handle woodworking. If I tried, I'd probably kill myself, or burn down the house at the very least.

[Lyn2012]

Originally Posted by Katsunami

They think like this: "I put the document into the printer. Then I press the second button on the third row. Then I enter 1, 5, 0, and press the green button in the bottom right corner. Then I press the fourth button on the third row...."

Maybe they're not really human after all, but more like an animal that is unable to reason and just does things by rote. Or are they just brain dead from living in a society that no longer expects, or wishes, people to think for themselves and take responsibility for themselves.

[Katsunami]

I don't really know what causes this kind of "I can't/don't want to understand this" apathy regarding technology, even in people who *want* to use the stuff they buy.

The only thing I know is that in my helpdesk time, I've had to resort to the "third button from the left, then the green one on the right"-mantra quite a lot... sometimes even with people who started the call with: "Hello, this is Dr. John Doe, PhD, from London." Normally one would think that people who have the intelligence *and* perseverance to obtain such a title (assuming they're not lying when calling) will be able to figure out how to use a new printer/copier, but not always.

[WT Sharpe]

Continuing the off-topic aside about folders; I never had a problem finding my files with my first computer. I kept the cassette tapes stored in a shoebox.

[Katsunami]

Originally Posted by WT Sharpe

Continuing the off-topic aside about folders; I never had a problem finding my files with my first computer.

I didn't either, but then again, apart from the OS en program files I never needed to look at, I didn't have more than 25 files of my own

Originally Posted by WT Sharpe

Continuing the off-topic aside about folders; I never had a problem finding my files with my first computer. I kept the cassette tapes stored in a shoebox.

My first computer was an overgrown calculator with BASIC built in. It was the RadioShack Tandy PRS-80 Pocket Computer and it used cassette tapes too. It is scary that this 1980-1981? computer had more computing power than the Apollo spacecraft that took men to the Moon! But then so does my Casio watch.

[AnemicOak]

The first computer we had when I was a kid was the Commodore Vic 20 using a cassette recorder for storage (that or it was the TI-99, can't remember for sure which was first)...