Piracy Experiment

[silasgreenback]

Originally Posted by mr ploppy

Harlan Ellison?

From what I've read about him, he deserves it.

[CommonReader]

Originally Posted by Xanthe

.Rare is the person who is chuckling evilly and deliberately putting up a book by an author for the sole purpose of decreasing his/her monetary sales. In fact, there is only one author that I know of for whom that happened (and no, I didn't put any of his/her books up on the Dark Net ). I have to say I chuckled when I saw it, but then the joke was on me because I started to see the "I never heard about that author before - I really liked that book" remarks and I knew that new fans had been created.

And there I thought that most people knew Tony Blair ad nauseam even before he started to publish books.

Originally Posted by Anke Wehner

Another thing is that in many countries (not the US, though), there are mechanisms that do pay authors for library loans, after a fashion. (In Germany per loan 3-4 cents are paid to an organisation which also gets fees for e.g. each scanner or photocopier sold. They pay their own overhead, and pay out the rest of the money to authors registered with them.)

Right. Every time I save my holiday photos to DVD I am kindly requested to pay money to the content industry. My sense of pity for the hardships supposedly endured by the content industry is very limited.

[mr ploppy]

Originally Posted by CommonReader

Right. Every time I save my holiday photos to DVD I am kindly requested to pay money to the content industry..

With none of it ever going anywhere near the creators. Just like all the money the RIAA made from taking children to court.

[Andrew H.]

Originally Posted by Xanthe

Just wandering through this thread and am wondering how many of you who are railing against the Dark Net and lamenting the fact that writers and publishers are not being paid for the ebook, have ever bought a used book or taken a book out from a library?

This is a bad comparison. In the case of both the library and the used book sale, the author has already been paid once, and the number of additional people who can read the used/library book is quite limited as compared to e-books available for download. And of course you only keep library books for a limited period of time. I should also note - with respect to libraries - that my library purchases many more books that I do not read than books that I do read. I.e., for every author whose book I borrow from the library, there are many more authors whose books I have paid for through my taxes, but whose books I will never read.

In the first instance, you're getting the value of the author's work without paying him/her anything - in fact, you're making a third party richer on their back (you cannot assume that the person selling the used book bought it at full price themselves) - and in the second instance you have not paid anything for the book and hundreds or more people are reading the same book for the price of one book, probably similar to the number of people who actually read whatever book they've downloaded on the Dark Net. So unless you've never done either of those things, I don't see your moral high ground being any higher than those who have done so. And those who have done so are the same type of people who access the Dark Net. Especially since many view the ebook Dark Net as one huge lending library by readers for readers.

See above. The library bought the author's book. If it's likely to be popular, the library will have bought 100's of copies, in hardback, as my library did for Tom Clancy and Diane Setterfield.

The Darknet is like a lending library *except that the books are stolen.*

As has been pointed out, the prime lure of the Dark Net, IMO, is convenience. You can find all the books in a series, for instance, even those that are out-of-print. You feel like reading (or re-reading more likely) so-and-so's series? Just find it and download it.

Yeah, it's been asserted that people do this for convenience. I'm sure there are a couple of people who do so. But pretending that the fact you can get a book for free on the darknet, vs. paying $9.99 or more retail, is intellectually dishonest.

And readers who steal from authors are scum.

All thanks to the OP for starting this thread, but if you couldn't find the books you wanted, then you weren't on the top sites. Most of them aren't open registration and you have to be invited to join them.

I'm sure she didn't have access to the l33t book fencing clubs, but I think her experience is valuable because it suggests what the piracy experience will be like for more typical readers (although as a MR participant, she is already somewhat non-typical).

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by Andrew H.

This is a bad comparison. In the case of both the library and the used book sale, the author has already been paid once, and the number of additional people who can read the used/library book is quite limited as compared to e-books available for download. And of course you only keep library books for a limited period of time. I should also note - with respect to libraries - that my library purchases many more books that I do not read than books that I do read. I.e., for every author whose book I borrow from the library, there are many more authors whose books I have paid for through my taxes, but whose books I will never read.

Plus, of course, in most western countries, an author gets paid every time a book is borrowed from a library - the "public lending right". It's a strange anomaly that the US does not have a PLR.

[Andrew H.]

Originally Posted by HarryT

Plus, of course, in most western countries, an author gets paid every time a book is borrowed from a library - the "public lending right". It's a strange anomaly that the US does not have a PLR.

The problem with instituting PLR in the US is that it would benefit bestselling authors while causing libraries not to carry less popular authors (because the PLR payments would come from the same funds used to buy books). This is not the result anyone wants - and as my library alone purchased over 300 hardbacks of the new Tom Clancy, I don't think that many people feel that he's hurting so badly from library lending that we should pay him more and not buy, say, 20 books from lesser known authors.

In all but a few countries with PLR, the payment doesn't go to *any* author whose book is borrowed, but only to those authors with the correct nationality or who write the appropriate language. PLR payments in Canada only go to Canadian authors; PLR payments in Australia only to Australians. (This is understandable politically, of course, as these countries would otherwise send most of their PLR payments to Tom Clancy and other US bestselling authors.)

PLR payments in Scandanavia only go to authors who write in the relevant national language...although an American who writes in Danish, for example, would be eligible. UK PLR payments used to be limited only to UK authors, but have been expanded somewhat to EU authors in countries that pay UK authors a PLR in that country.

So in the vast majority of cases, PLR is really an additional form of state support for the national literature.

But not everywhere - Germany is one of the few PLR countries that actually pays *all* authors a PLR payment.

[Catlady]

Originally Posted by Xanthe

As has been pointed out, the prime lure of the Dark Net, IMO, is convenience. You can find all the books in a series, for instance, even those that are out-of-print. You feel like reading (or re-reading more likely) so-and-so's series? Just find it and download it. As for the people who put up the books? Sure there's some who do it to be first, but there are a lot more people who put up the books of the authors they love because they want to make them better known, or to share a gem that they've found, or to put up a series that only been available in their country. Rare is the person who is chuckling evilly and deliberately putting up a book by an author for the sole purpose of decreasing his/her monetary sales. In fact, there is only one author that I know of for whom that happened (and no, I didn't put any of his/her books up on the Dark Net ). I have to say I chuckled when I saw it, but then the joke was on me because I started to see the "I never heard about that author before - I really liked that book" remarks and I knew that new fans had been created.

I have a few thousand paper books, bought and paid for. Now that I have an e-reader, I'd like to get these books in digital form. I can't possibly buy them all again--they're not even all available, and I don't have that kind of money. I could destroy them and scan them--a daunting task (and I shudder at the thought of destroying them anyway). Or I could find copies that other people have already digitized, and donate my paper books to the library--which can then sell them and make some money to buy more books. It's hard to deny the allure of the latter approach.

[Jellby]

Originally Posted by Andrew H.

The problem with instituting PLR in the US is that it would benefit bestselling authors while causing libraries not to carry less popular authors (because the PLR payments would come from the same funds used to buy books).

Why? It would, if anything, encourage libraries to carry less popular authors, which are less likely to be borrowed

[Xanthe]

Originally Posted by Andrew H.

This is a bad comparison. In the case of both the library and the used book sale, the author has already been paid once, and the number of additional people who can read the used/library book is quite limited as compared to e-books available for download. And of course you only keep library books for a limited period of time. I should also note - with respect to libraries - that my library purchases many more books that I do not read than books that I do read. I.e., for every author whose book I borrow from the library, there are many more authors whose books I have paid for through my taxes, but whose books I will never read.

See above. The library bought the author's book. If it's likely to be popular, the library will have bought 100's of copies, in hardback, as my library did for Tom Clancy and Diane Setterfield.

The Darknet is like a lending library *except that the books are stolen.*

Please, not the "my taxes" argument. The percentage of your taxes - or my taxes for that matter - that actually buys any books is probably in fractions of cents. You are not actually paying full price for any of those books, no where near. In fact, you probably lose more change from your pocket in a year than you actually contribute to the cost of book purchases.

Rare is the library that buys "100's of copies of a book", and if your library is, then your allegation in your first paragraph that the number of people who can read it is limited is not quite true (100 copies x 52 weeks = at least 5200 readers). My library system does not buy 100's of copies of any book. LOL, they bought 15 of the last Harry Potter for four library locations.

No, the books on the Dark Net are not "stolen". They were put up by people who purchased copies of the books, just like libraries purchased their copies. The people who put them up there put them up with the express idea of sharing their copies of books with others. How is that different, except in scale, of you loaning a book you bought to a friend to read?

The "you can only keep a library book for a limited amount of time" argument is meaningless. What do you think happens with those ebooks that people download from the Dark Net? People read them, then either they delete the book immediately or they let it languish on their hard drives. They are not selling the books - there is no "used ebook" market, they are not doing anything nefarious with them. You can sell the book you previously loaned to a friend, and make money on it - money which does not go to the author. That's not an option with an ebook.

Yeah, it's been asserted that people do this for convenience. I'm sure there are a couple of people who do so. But pretending that the fact you can get a book for free on the darknet, vs. paying $9.99 or more retail, is intellectually dishonest.

And readers who steal from authors are scum.

Much more than "a couple". Many people use the Dark Net to obtain ebook copies of books they already own because they don't have either the technical ability or the equipment to convert the books on their own and/or the book is not available in ebook format. It's not so black-or-white an issue as you'd like to portray it.

We are going to have to agree to differ on this, because I don't see sharing books on the internet as "stealing", and it is not an ethical failing on my part as I'm sure some of you would like to depict it. What you seem to be failing to realize is that the people who even bother to put books up on the Dark Net, and the people who download them, are people who love books and love to read - a totally different kettle of fish from most other types of downloaders. These are people who are still buying paper books in addition to downloading ebooks. They are still supporting their local libraries. They are still supporting the authors.

It doesn't have to be an either/or or us vs. them proposition. Both methods of obtaining reading material - because that's what it ultimately is - can coexist peacefully. The key is to make both choices both attractive and useful. There will always be a need for public libraries, there are always going to be people who want to own physical books. What the Dark Net does really well is making available out-of-print books - books that you usually can't find in your local library or in bookstores. I don't know about your library system, but mine is constantly selling off its older books to make room for new ones. There are authors that I used to enjoy reading and re-reading whose books are no longer available in my library. The Dark Net is also, as I mentioned, capable of reaching a global audience. Why do you think there has been a rise in interest in America in Scandinavian mystery/suspense authors? It's not because they've been so well-marketed here.

I'm sure she didn't have access to the l33t book fencing clubs, but I think her experience is valuable because it suggests what the piracy experience will be like for more typical readers (although as a MR participant, she is already somewhat non-typical).

I was in no way knocking her. I was just pointing out that it wasn't an accurate representation of availability and that a newbie's definition of "top site" may not actually be the same as the top sites.

[Freeshadow]

yeah, I found it very curageous to post about the experiment.
I wrote my experiences down in following NOT because I wanted to boast that my search-fu was better (or i had more luck) but in order to show:

a) the same but based on a different search pattern (english-version pirated books are more common than others I think, same as a lot of other things is easier to find in english like howtos etc.)

b) to show that sucsess in finding things on darknet still is a matter of luck
it might be you find only crap
might be you find 50/50
might be you find handcrafted gems

it might depend on what you look for, how you do it and even when you do it.
i know that a lot of said books I reported weren't there 1 month ago altough they are several years old now.

so no kicking here too.

footnote: in order to allow compareability with my results here some facts:

a) I haven't used any special means of transferring or access to the data like BT or one of that pesty P2P viral spreaders
as I pointed out already I have said books already in paper (the same languages) so its ok for me to have them scanned but would not be right to automatically redistribute since I cannot know wether people loading from me bought them too before.

b) I first search for places to search for the content
then search inside ther for content itself

[Ankh]

Originally Posted by Andrew H.

I'm sure she didn't have access to the l33t book fencing clubs, but I think her experience is valuable because it suggests what the piracy experience will be like for more typical readers (although as a MR participant, she is already somewhat non-typical).

The experience is not valuable at all. And the problems are with the interpretations of results:
- Assumption that "an average reader" who was exploring piracy sites will give up after such an experience and go on with the legal route forever and ever. The amount of money spent of books is, on average, relatively small, but it ads up over time. "An average reader" will be tempted both by the stories of someone he knows, complaints by authors, articles about the internet piracy, etc. If he has crossed the moral line once, it is most likely that he will try again, it is most likely that he will figure out that he has missed "the major sites".
- Assumption that poor quality of pirated material will never change. This amounts to belief that there will be no increase in proliferation of "DRM liberated" content (which is equivalent to the retail versions), and also assumes that pirated versions will never be proofed. In the rare case where retail versions of e-books are proofed you end up with the better version than the one offered for sale.

What really threatens ebooks in particular is the high "return" on the activity. The amount of time/bandwidth necessary to download an ebook is infinitesimally small compared to, say, latest blockbuster offered in HD, and the result provides days of entertainment for the one interested in ebook piracy in the first place.

[Fbone]

Originally Posted by Xanthe

Please, not the "my taxes" argument. The percentage of your taxes - or my taxes for that matter - that actually buys any books is probably in fractions of cents. You are not actually paying full price for any of those books, no where near. In fact, you probably lose more change from your pocket in a year than you actually contribute to the cost of book purchases.

In 2010 I paid $187 in library tax. Of that approx $9.73 went toward printed books (adult, YA, children). Yes, I didnt pay much toward new material but the library as a whole budgeted $95,000 for 2010. This for a small suburban town. Multiply that by thousands and it adds up to a decent figure.

Besides, I like to get something out of my taxes.

[bucsie]

Originally Posted by Andrew H.

The Darknet is like a lending library *except that the books are stolen.*
....

And readers who steal from authors are scum.

So, I'm a scum.And I have no shame in admitting that. Living in an eastern country I grew up with downloading music and movies for free off the infamous dark net. Back then, when a good salary was around $200 /month, paying $15 for any entertainment-type file was... well, stupid. I was a student with practically no money. There were no laws about copyright then in these backwaters.

Of course, now I grew up, we're more modern, downloading now IS stealing but I still have no problem going to my favorite torrent site when in need. I do sympathize with the writers, I really do. But it's still all about the money, in the end (my money).
What I do to ease my conscience is that I donate money to make up for my immoral ways. A $50 donation to one of those book-offering dark net sites for giving me 100 or maybe 200 books I like. Beats the hell of buying them at $18 apiece.

And I don't give a fig that the pirated books are low quality, spelling errors and bad formatted OCR versions. As long as I am able to read them and there are no missing pages, I am happy. I don't look the gift horse in the mouth. If I could help fix them and make them more readable, I would.

Originally Posted by Xanthe

All thanks to the OP for starting this thread, but if you couldn't find the books you wanted, then you weren't on the top sites. Most of them aren't open registration and you have to be invited to join them.

Being an old acquaintance of the dark net, I must say it is considerably harder to get ebooks that movies or music. I only found a couple of sites with free registration, and for the life of me cannot get invitations to any non-free ones. And I have been trying for weeks now. So there, you can take solace in the fact that even old sharks can't get into those bountiful waters.

My point is that piracy will forever be there. We want to sugar coat it with nice principles behind it, but at the end of the day it's about time and money. Since time=money, it's all about money.

Disclaimer:
That is the post I would write if I were indeed doing such nasty things as going to the dark net for books, but that is not me, of course. It is all hypothetical or is true of a friend of a friend of my cousin.

[pdurrant]

Originally Posted by bucsie

What I do to ease my conscience is that I donate money to make up for my immoral ways. A $50 donation to one of those book-offering dark net sites for giving me 100 or maybe 200 books I like. Beats the hell of buying them at $18 apiece.

Mobileread rules prevent me from saying properly what I think of your immoral behaviour in sending money to people who give away other people's work and solicit money for doing so.

If you are in a position in which really you cannot pay for ebooks, either though lack of funds, or because they are simply unavailable, I can understand why you might feel it reasonable to obtain them in other ways.

But to have money to spend on ebooks and then to spend it in such a way that none of it goes to the people who created the books you enjoy is unconscionable.

[bucsie]

Originally Posted by pdurrant

If you are in a position in which really you cannot pay for ebooks, either though lack of funds, or because they are simply unavailable, I can understand why you might feel it reasonable to obtain them in other ways.

But to have money to spend on ebooks and then to spend it in such a way that none of it goes to the people who created the books you enjoy is unconscionable.

One might have $50 but not $5000 which is what a virtual library might cost. So in that, there is a lack of funds. How can one make so that those money get to the authors? It would be like half a buck a book. Do you paypal Lee Childs - "Here's $10, I just read your series, it was great! Couldn't afford to buy it though, I'm not from the States so I couldn't loan them from a library but I felt I owed you something anyway"

If ebooks were that cheap - 2-3 dollars, the piracy would go down. It wouldn't be extinct, but still...
But then the writers would have to make a living by selling a lot more, which means they would have to either be great writers or find other jobs.