Can a popular novel be badly written?

[bhartman36]

Originally Posted by MrsJoseph

I can see your point, but a lot of these adults were not readers for entertainment to begin with. My boss' wife & her best friend loved the Twilight saga and tried to get me to read it (their first foray into fantasy, SMH, Fantasy for Beginners: 101). I *gag* at the thought of twinkling vampires, so I had to decline. But I was able to give them suggestions for the next read.

I'm sorry for being dense, but I don't see your point here. If people picking up Twilight aren't reading for entertainment, what're they reading for? I would've assumed that someone who doesn't enjoy reading at all would just see it on the big screen (or the little one). I think an adult who picks up Twilight to read at least fancies him/herself a reader for entertainment, even if their reading is much less frequent than any of ours on this forum.

[MrsJoseph]

Originally Posted by bhartman36

I think your husband might be a different case. At least periodicals have the potential of being written to be read and enjoyed (as opposed to the utilitarian nature of financial magazines, for example). He's also got you to encourage him to broaden his view of reading. I tend to think that left to their own devices, the majority of people will follow the progression that OtterBooks laid out...

Maybe, maybe not. I tend to think of the glass as half full.

And I'd rather people read trash than watch TV. At least reading (in all its forms) encourages a greater vocabulary, exercises the mind, and assists in visualization.

[MrsJoseph]

Originally Posted by bhartman36

I'm sorry for being dense, but I don't see your point here. If people picking up Twilight aren't reading for entertainment, what're they reading for? I would've assumed that someone who doesn't enjoy reading at all would just see it on the big screen (or the little one). I think an adult who picks up Twilight to read at least fancies him/herself a reader for entertainment, even if their reading is much less frequent than any of ours on this forum.

For curiosity and to be a part of the herd (Curiosity killed the cat, but satisfaction brought it back). Environmental influences are always present. The books were popular LONG before the movies came out. Whenever there is a book made into a movie, what do you hear? "The book was waaaay better than the movie!" People (at least the people I know who read Twilight and HP as adults) wanted to be able to join the conversation. But the satisfaction part, ahhh! It is amazing. Once someone reads and enjoys a book (even if its trash), what you now have is an open mind. All you have to do now is slip in a suggestion or two. It’s how women lead men all the time, make them feel like it’s their own idea.

[bhartman36]

Originally Posted by MrsJoseph

Maybe, maybe not. I tend to think of the glass as half full.

And I'd rather people read trash than watch TV. At least reading (in all its forms) encourages a greater vocabulary, exercises the mind, and assists in visualization.

Well, assisting in visualization, I'll give you. As far as vocabulary, etc., that definitely depends on the writing. A 30-year old reading a book geared towards teens (hopefully) isn't getting their vocabulary broadened. I do suppose that there are areas of the brain exercised by the simple act of reading that are dormant when watching tv, though.

[bhartman36]

Originally Posted by MrsJoseph

For curiosity and to be a part of the herd (Curiosity killed the cat, but satisfaction brought it back). Environmental influences are always present. The books were popular LONG before the movies came out. Whenever there is a book made into a movie, what do you hear? "The book was waaaay better than the movie!" People (at least the people I know who read Twilight and HP as adults) wanted to be able to join the conversation. But the satisfaction part, ahhh! It is amazing. Once someone reads and enjoys a book (even if its trash), what you now have is an open mind. All you have to do now is slip in a suggestion or two.

Okay, I kind of get that. It's why I decided to read The Da Vinci Code. (I'm still debating whether or not that was a good idea. )

Is there a danger that someone introduced to bad writing will prefer bad writing? Better-written books are often more challenging to the reader.

I don't know the answer, but the trend is disturbing to me: When I was a kid, I used to read The Hardy Boys books. While it might be a bit of a stretch, adults reading HP and Twilight now seems akin to them reading The Hardy Boys back then.

Originally Posted by MrsJoseph

It’s how women lead men all the time, make them feel like it’s their own idea.

Why am I suddenly very afraid?

[MrsJoseph]

Originally Posted by bhartman36

It's why I decided to read The Da Vinci Code. (I'm still debating whether or not that was a good idea. )

Me, too. I have this HB book sitting on my shelf that I know I'll never read again. But I have a major issue with tossing books. Its pretty bad, I only purge when forced.

Originally Posted by bhartman36

Is there a danger that someone introduced to bad writing will prefer bad writing? Better-written books are often more challenging to the reader.

I don't know the answer, but the trend is disturbing to me: When I was a kid, I used to read The Hardy Boys books. While it might be a bit of a stretch, adults reading HP and Twilight now seems akin to them reading The Hardy Boys back then.

I can understand this feeling and I see where you're coming from. For some, this is true (I know someone who reads nothing but urban relationship fiction)...but others? Not really. I think of it like food: When you're starving, everything tastes good - but when you're satisfied, you're picky.

Originally Posted by bhartman36

Why am I suddenly very afraid?

Don't be. This has been happening since the beginning of time. It's too late to backtrack now

[eosrose]

Some people are poor writers, but good storytellers. Others are poor storytellers, but good writers. Personally, a good storyteller will be able to keep me engaged regardless of technical skill.

[tompe]

Originally Posted by bhartman36

Well, assisting in visualization, I'll give you. As far as vocabulary, etc., that definitely depends on the writing. A 30-year old reading a book geared towards teens (hopefully) isn't getting their vocabulary broadened. I do suppose that there are areas of the brain exercised by the simple act of reading that are dormant when watching tv, though.

Since I do not visualize so much a book does not enhance my visualization skills.

I would say that watching a TV series like The Wire give much more than most books. The opinion that just because it is TV it is bad or worthless is currently an incorrect opinion. The quality of the best TV shows have increased a lot in recent years.

[DMcCunney]

Originally Posted by bhartman36

I think your husband might be a different case. At least periodicals have the potential of being written to be read and enjoyed (as opposed to the utilitarian nature of financial magazines, for example). He's also got you to encourage him to broaden his view of reading. I tend to think that left to their own devices, the majority of people will follow the progression that OtterBooks laid out...

It's quite possible to enjoy financial magazines, if the topic is one that interests you. The advantage to periodicals is similar to the advantage of reading on line. Lots of people who might not read books do in fact read a lot while surfing, but they read in smaller, easier-to-digest chunks. Books require immersion, attention span, and concentrated effort.

The trick to getting a non-reader reading largely revolves around finding things they might like to read about. I met a woman a few years ago who taught English in a community college in a mill town. Most of her students read things like books about celebrities and sports stars to the extent they read at all. Oddly, they liked the work of SF Writer Octavia Butler. A lot of her work revolves around alienation, and that resonated with them, as they didn't have much of a future, and knew it.
______
Dennis

[gmw]

It is nice to see that I am not completely alone in thinking that writing to your audience is important. I am curious to see the number of people that think that educating that audience is somehow part of good writing. If you're writing text books then I can see that is important, but if you're writing a novel then I don't see that as the author's job. I think that reading is good for people's minds, regardless of whether it directly expands their vocabulary - simply exercising your imagination is a good thing I think, and a book does not have to be technically spotless to achieve that. I am generally suspicious of books advertised as "good for me".

[DMcCunney]

Originally Posted by gmw

It is nice to see that I am not completely alone in thinking that writing to your audience is important. I am curious to see the number of people that think that educating that audience is somehow part of good writing. If you're writing text books then I can see that is important, but if you're writing a novel then I don't see that as the author's job. I think that reading is good for people's minds, regardless of whether it directly expands their vocabulary - simply exercising your imagination is a good thing I think, and a book does not have to be technically spotless to achieve that. I am generally suspicious of books advertised as "good for me".

Any writer will write to an audience. When you sit down to write a novel, you have at least some idea of what story you are trying to tell, and who you are trying to tell it to. Your concept of who you are telling it to will affect the way in which you tell it.

But I think you're applying too narrow a definition of "educating". Just about any good novel will teach the reader something. In some cases, it's explicit, like the historical novel where the author does research to provide verisimilitude - all the little details that transport you to a different place and time. Or the "police procedural" mystery, where the author will be at some pains to accurately depict exactly how the cops go about solving the crime, because the how is the point of the story.

Even in a mainstream novel, lessons are imparted, about the lives we lead and our relationships with others. Those lessons are what the books are about.

The trick is doing what SF writer Robert A. Heinlein advised: "Don't tell them, show them!", and incorporating the background seamlessly as part of the story instead of indigestible expository lumps.
______
Dennis

[DiapDealer]

The trick is doing what SF writer Robert A. Heinlein advised: "Don't tell them, show them!", and incorporating the background seamlessly as part of the story instead of indigestible expository lumps.

If only that were tattooed on the inside of more fiction authors' eyelids.

[Sydney's Mom]

Writing for your audience is a great point. I can find tax cases that are very well written, and some that are a little dry (imagine that!). As for the comment about Dan Browne - I started his book, and couldn't finish it. The movie didn't tie together for me, either, so I agree - holes in the plot are not a death knell.

I read a broad spectrum of fiction-popular, classic, romance, and nonfiction - biographies, autobiographies, self-help, popular. Within each category, there is a type of writing you expect. I don't think I would enjoy a biography written in the style of a romance, or a popular fiction book written in the stlye of a romance (I guess I really dislike the style of writting that goes into most romances, but it seems to fit for the genre. Once a romance starts to read like a traveloge, it's lost me.)

[Timoleon]

Although I've never read it (and thus cannot give an informed opinion), among well-known 20th Century classics "Sophie's Choice" supposedly suffers from a multitude of problems.

I was struck by HarryT's quote from Dicken's "Bleak House". When I was young (high school) I was forced to read it and hated it like the plague. Twenty-five years later I picked it up once again and couldn't put it down. Anyway, reading HarryT's quote I immediately realized why I liked China Mieville's description of New Crobuzon at the beginning of his "Perdido Street Station" --- it's a dead ringer Dickensian creation!

[Harmon]

Originally Posted by gmw

You're not the first. It is interesting to read what other people consider to be good writing. I like Jane Austen very much (have been rereading some of her work just recently), but that doesn't mean I think anything/everything would have been better for being written in such a style. I believe it is just another style to be enjoyed, a style suitable to its time, content and audience just as more modern writers write for their time, content and audience.

Oh, no question but that different styles make for different good writing. But I think there are commonalities as well, not of style, but of construction & attention to such things as connotation, shades of meaning, foreshadowing & so forth.

And one does not even have to like good writing to understand that one is seeing it. I am unable to get into either early or late Henry James, but I do see that he knows what he is doing with words, and is paying attention not merely to what he says, but how he says it.

But poor writing is not just another style. In fact, poor writing usually incorporates, among its other defects, lack of style.