Excessive profanity in books - Page 10

SameOldStory · 10-25-2010, 04:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Worldwalker

A book doesn't need profanity, and it doesn't not need profanity. It needs whatever is appropriate to the characters and the story.

I find it intriguing that one aspect of storytelling -- what combinations of letters someone uses -- is being singled out over things that affect me, as a reader, a great deal more: flat plotlines, for instance.

This is just one aspect that is being talked about. Nothing to worry about.

To put it in perspective > Were the topic fantasy novels and how much "reality" had to be included you would find some arguing that some aerodynamics had to be applied to flying dragons. Others would insist that aerodynamics were not needed.

I think that it is needed in some stories, but also that some very good stories have been told without any. When a good author uses it well it will fly past you in a flash, adding texture, but unnoticed in itself.

Speaking of sudden flashes. This just poped into my mind - imagine "The Tell-Tale Heart" with profanity in it?

crich70 · 10-25-2010, 04:42 PM

lol. My mother was the same way when I was little. She'd say things like horsefeathers on the rare occasion when she cut loose. Of course I didn't understand that and sometimes pointed out to her that horses don't have feathers. rofl.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lady Fitzgerald

I always liked Starbuck's use of feltercarb in Battlestar Galactica. My daughter introduced me to farknarkles. I remember back before most of you all were born seeing an interview with an actor who had just adopted a child and, to avoid using profanity around her, invented words to substitute for the bad ones. The one that stuck in what passes for my brain was laughingsnarf.

I like to come up with "replacements" for choicer terms such as donkey excavation, sagacious donkey, punting posterior (I also like alliteration), donkey osculation, hurt in the donkey, Fullfilled Oedipal Complex (being a Psych major can be useful), male bovine biowaste, ka-ka countenanced, mute donkey, secured from beneath with a helical fastener, etc. A couple of times here on MR I've used the expression, "I don't give the north end of a southbound furry rodent." That garnered a few chuckles.

JLeighs · 10-25-2010, 04:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by crich70

lol. My mother was the same way when I was little. She'd say things like horsefeathers on the rare occasion when she cut loose. Of course I didn't understand that and sometimes pointed out to her that horses don't have feathers. rofl.

Do we have the same mother?! LOL! My mom (still to this day) will pop off with "Oh horsefeathers!" when she is particularly disgusted with something.

Lady Fitzgerald · 10-25-2010, 05:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by crich70

lol. My mother was the same way when I was little. She'd say things like horsefeathers on the rare occasion when she cut loose. Of course I didn't understand that and sometimes pointed out to her that horses don't have feathers. rofl.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JLeighs

Do we have the same mother?! LOL! My mom (still to this day) will pop off with "Oh horsefeathers!" when she is particularly disgusted with something.

Ok, you two can call me Mom. I also use horsefeathers.

@crich70 You realize when you pointed out that horses do not have feathers, you probably made her angier? My sister and I learned at an early age that when our mother's Irish was up to keep our mouths shut and get lost.

Metal Mick · 10-25-2010, 05:23 PM

Hi all,

like many here, excessive profanity damages the reading experience for me. The emphasis is on the "excessive".

That said, there are people in this world who cannot express themselves without such words. The police I used to work with are priceless examples of this, and there was one instance of comments on a (log-forgotten) topic going around the lunch table and each respondent became increasingly profane as emotions on the topic became stronger. Eventually there were no other intelligible words in the "sentences", with grunts of support for the speaker.

If a writer is using the vernacular, then some profanity - especially nowadays - is near-unavoidable, at least in the dialog.

That said, I agree with others who have suggested too much is indicative of poor writing skills and I tend to avoid such words in my own writing. But in a novel I have started I have every intention of incorporating that language in dialog from the police.

I don't recall ever reading a book though, and afterwards wishing there were more foul words in it, so as far as enhancing the experience goes, I can live without it, and by and large, I write without it.

Cheers,

ShortNCuddlyAm · 10-25-2010, 06:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JLeighs

I don't like the "p" and "d" word anymore than I like the "c" word. I just commented on it because someone had posted the "c" word count of a book in progress.

Edited to add: I do find the "c" word more 'jarring' when I come across it, probably because I'm a woman. I hope that makes sense.

It makes sense that you find them all equally offensive.

I used to find the c-word more offensive, again possibly because I'm also female - but then again I know a lot of men who visibly cringe and look embarrassed if some-one utters it in their earshot.

I'm not sure when I began to find it more offensive that most people considered that part of my anatomy more offensive than the equivalent male part

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sparrow

I reckon it's a more offensive swearword because it refers to female anatomy; and shows disrespect to women - so shocks on two levels.

But why should showing disrespect to women be more shocking than showing disrespect to men?

Quote:

Originally Posted by crich70

Actually the c word originally referred to the home of a small furry animal like a rabbit or other such. In other words it was another word for their den or burrow. At least that's what I'm given to understand. In that way it parallels the origin of the proper Latin name of said anatomy. Said word having been the name (that the Romans used) for the scabbard in which a sword is placed when not in use. It's interesting that both words originally were meant to be visually descriptive.

Interesting. I'd never actually looked up where it came from

Connallmac · 10-25-2010, 07:05 PM

I've often found profanity to have a relationship to language like that of salt or spice to cooking. If you put enough in, it brings out the flavor of what you're reading. Put in too much and it ruins the read. Stretch the analogy a little further to cover appropriateness, you'd no more fill a primary school child's book with profanity than you'd pour Tabasco sauce in a baby's bottle.

Worldwalker · 10-25-2010, 07:38 PM

I'm all in favor of good excerpts. That way, I can find out if a book's characters are flat (though it wouldn't have helped that mystery, I suppose) or, for that matter, if they use too much or too little profanity. Too little? Yes ... a character one would expect to say a "naughty" word saying "heck" instead also grates on the ear. It's not authentic to the character.

That leads to another interesting situation, with regard to substitutions: For a number of years, I played a MMO in which profanity was utterly forbidden. A character could be essentially banned for a single naughty word, and an entire account for several. In posts, I am sometimes prone to writing "@#$%#$" as sort of an inarticulate growl of rage. I was informed that I couldn't do that, as it might represent profanity, and if I didn't mean something "naughty" I should type it out in full. Some time after I'd left, several players in a group event were banned for saying "FTW" ("for the win", if you've never met it -- it was something like "red team FTW!!!" after a victory) because the "F" might conceivably not mean "for". Most notably, the programmers put in a filter which turned, for instance, a certain word into "maid" -- a nominally safe word. But after a while, they started punishing people for saying "maid", following the logic that they might have said a word that was turned into "maid" rather than just, y'know, saying "maid", so they should be treated exactly as though they'd typed profanity -- even if they hadn't, and had just used a word the programmers had deemed safe. Yes, they made "maid", "dog", and a few other words into "bad" words because they might be program substitutions for other words.

That makes me wonder about substitute profanity. Take "heck", for instance, as a substitute for "hell". It means the same thing. The person who says it is thinking the same thing. The person who hears it understands the same thing. In either case, it's referring to the Christian place of damnation. Why is the euphemism permitted? Or take the Orthodox Jewish substitution of "G*d" for "God". Both '*' and 'o' are symbols on the keyboard. Why does it matter which one you use when you type it? They're both referring to a primal deity, and they mean exactly the same; it's really a matter of how you draw the symbol in the middle.

So why would saying "zark" instead of, say, the infamous F-bomb make a difference? The author knows what "zark" means. You know what "zark" means. If "zark" or "tanj" or "frack" or "donkey tails" means the same as some taboo word, why substitute? It's the intent and meaning that matter, not the exact string of characters being used to convey it. If you shouldn't be thinking "F-word" then you shouldn't be typing "tanj" if it means the same thing.

I'm reminded of the story of the ruler who wanted to find a person who was absolutely pure. He sent his Grand Vizier out to search for such a person, but everyone the Vizier questioned had heard the word ... well, let's say "zark". For years he traveled the country, but he could find no one who had not heard the word. Finally, he heard of a child who had been raised by deaf parents and learned to read from books. He went to seek out this child, and by circumlocutions, determined she had indeed never heard the word "zark". But he was doomed to disappointment when, in his final question that was intended to elicit the horrible word if she'd ever heard it, she said "oh, you mean 'gleep'".

If you're not going to use a word, then don't use the word. But using some alternative spelling for the word doesn't change anything. Characters who say "zarking" are still swearing in their understanding, even if it isn't the same string of characters in ours.

ShortNCuddlyAm · 10-25-2010, 07:57 PM

One of the web comics I read has had a story arc on swearing for the past few strips - Nodwick, starting here

crich70 · 10-25-2010, 08:38 PM

I think it's just an odd coincidence JLeighs. Or maybe it was in the Mother's Manual when we were both young.lol. I might have Lady fitzgerald, but it's been so long ago I really can't remember. I was probably pre-school age at the time (I'm 39 now) so it was quite a while back. Mom could have a temper I know though my dad was more likely to see it than I was back then.

I think she is part Irish and Swedish and German in heritage too so watch out when her eyes turn coal black. lol.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lady Fitzgerald

Ok, you two can call me Mom. I also use horsefeathers.

@crich70 You realize when you pointed out that horses do not have feathers, you probably made her angier? My sister and I learned at an early age that when our mother's Irish was up to keep our mouths shut and get lost.

ardeegee · 10-25-2010, 09:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Worldwalker

Most notably, the programmers put in a filter which turned, for instance, a certain word into "maid" -- a nominally safe word. But after a while, they started punishing people for saying "maid", following the logic that they might have said a word that was turned into "maid" rather than just, y'know, saying "maid", so they should be treated exactly as though they'd typed profanity -- even if they hadn't, and had just used a word the programmers had deemed safe. Yes, they made "maid", "dog", and a few other words into "bad" words because they might be program substitutions for other words.

Reminds me of a story that came out a few years back:

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&s...=&oq=&gs_rfai=

(Google link pulls up lots of reports on it.)

AprilHare · 10-26-2010, 06:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JLeighs

I hate it. Maybe I'm old-fashioned, but when I read a book that is riddled with profanity I can't help but think that the author isn't very skilled at putting a good story together, so s/he is relying on shock value to carry the storyline. I wish there were book ratings (G, PG, PG-13, R, X).

There are publication ratings, and sometimes publishers take it upon themselves to extend a rating system to books too. I have seen 'X' rated books.
This is not always the case, however.

Lemurion · 10-26-2010, 07:34 AM

Here's a question, what if the expletive means more to the characters than the readers?

For example I wrote a fantasy where the most common blasphemy is "Hammer it!" I don't think many readers here would have an issue with it; but it's actually fairly blasphemous in the context of the culture. It's calling for the Forger (creator deity) to destroy something with the Hammer of Creation - so it's not only requesting the deity destroy something, but that the deity pervert the tool of creation to do so.

To my characters it's blasphemy, but would any reader care?

kindlekitten · 10-26-2010, 09:51 AM

words only have the importance and impact that the reader/listener give them. remember the old saw; "sticks and stones may break my bones, but words will never hurt me." your perceptions and permission give negative words their impact

J. Strnad · 10-26-2010, 12:06 PM

My wife had been to the mall where a couple of teenagers were dropping f-bombs every few words. She told me, "That word is overused."

Not long after that, she bumped her head while getting into the car and let out her own f-bomb. I couldn't help it. I had to say, "That word is overused."

If looks could kill....

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10-25-2010, 05:23 PM	#140
Metal Mick Addict Posts: 253 Karma: 2383254 Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: Melbourne, Australia Device: The Book, PB 302, IQ	Hi all, like many here, excessive profanity damages the reading experience for me. The emphasis is on the "excessive". That said, there are people in this world who cannot express themselves without such words. The police I used to work with are priceless examples of this, and there was one instance of comments on a (log-forgotten) topic going around the lunch table and each respondent became increasingly profane as emotions on the topic became stronger. Eventually there were no other intelligible words in the "sentences", with grunts of support for the speaker. If a writer is using the vernacular, then some profanity - especially nowadays - is near-unavoidable, at least in the dialog. That said, I agree with others who have suggested too much is indicative of poor writing skills and I tend to avoid such words in my own writing. But in a novel I have started I have every intention of incorporating that language in dialog from the police. I don't recall ever reading a book though, and afterwards wishing there were more foul words in it, so as far as enhancing the experience goes, I can live without it, and by and large, I write without it. Cheers,

10-25-2010, 07:05 PM	#142
Connallmac Transplanted NYer Posts: 455 Karma: 520286 Join Date: May 2009 Location: Eastern IN Device: Kindle Fire HD 8.9", Kindle Fire HD 7", Kindle Touch	I've often found profanity to have a relationship to language like that of salt or spice to cooking. If you put enough in, it brings out the flavor of what you're reading. Put in too much and it ruins the read. Stretch the analogy a little further to cover appropriateness, you'd no more fill a primary school child's book with profanity than you'd pour Tabasco sauce in a baby's bottle.

10-25-2010, 07:38 PM	#143
Worldwalker Curmudgeon Posts: 3,085 Karma: 722357 Join Date: Feb 2010 Device: PRS-505	I'm all in favor of good excerpts. That way, I can find out if a book's characters are flat (though it wouldn't have helped that mystery, I suppose) or, for that matter, if they use too much or too little profanity. Too little? Yes ... a character one would expect to say a "naughty" word saying "heck" instead also grates on the ear. It's not authentic to the character. That leads to another interesting situation, with regard to substitutions: For a number of years, I played a MMO in which profanity was utterly forbidden. A character could be essentially banned for a single naughty word, and an entire account for several. In posts, I am sometimes prone to writing "@#$%#$" as sort of an inarticulate growl of rage. I was informed that I couldn't do that, as it might represent profanity, and if I didn't mean something "naughty" I should type it out in full. Some time after I'd left, several players in a group event were banned for saying "FTW" ("for the win", if you've never met it -- it was something like "red team FTW!!!" after a victory) because the "F" might conceivably not mean "for". Most notably, the programmers put in a filter which turned, for instance, a certain word into "maid" -- a nominally safe word. But after a while, they started punishing people for saying "maid", following the logic that they might have said a word that was turned into "maid" rather than just, y'know, saying "maid", so they should be treated exactly as though they'd typed profanity -- even if they hadn't, and had just used a word the programmers had deemed safe. Yes, they made "maid", "dog", and a few other words into "bad" words because they might be program substitutions for other words. That makes me wonder about substitute profanity. Take "heck", for instance, as a substitute for "hell". It means the same thing. The person who says it is thinking the same thing. The person who hears it understands the same thing. In either case, it's referring to the Christian place of damnation. Why is the euphemism permitted? Or take the Orthodox Jewish substitution of "Gd" for "God". Both '' and 'o' are symbols on the keyboard. Why does it matter which one you use when you type it? They're both referring to a primal deity, and they mean exactly the same; it's really a matter of how you draw the symbol in the middle. So why would saying "zark" instead of, say, the infamous F-bomb make a difference? The author knows what "zark" means. You know what "zark" means. If "zark" or "tanj" or "frack" or "donkey tails" means the same as some taboo word, why substitute? It's the intent and meaning that matter, not the exact string of characters being used to convey it. If you shouldn't be thinking "F-word" then you shouldn't be typing "tanj" if it means the same thing. I'm reminded of the story of the ruler who wanted to find a person who was absolutely pure. He sent his Grand Vizier out to search for such a person, but everyone the Vizier questioned had heard the word ... well, let's say "zark". For years he traveled the country, but he could find no one who had not heard the word. Finally, he heard of a child who had been raised by deaf parents and learned to read from books. He went to seek out this child, and by circumlocutions, determined she had indeed never heard the word "zark". But he was doomed to disappointment when, in his final question that was intended to elicit the horrible word if she'd ever heard it, she said "oh, you mean 'gleep'". If you're not going to use a word, then don't use the word. But using some alternative spelling for the word doesn't change anything. Characters who say "zarking" are still swearing in their understanding, even if it isn't the same string of characters in ours.

10-25-2010, 07:57 PM	#144
ShortNCuddlyAm WWHALD Posts: 7,879 Karma: 337114 Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Mitcham, Surrey, UK Device: iPad. Selling my silver 505 here	One of the web comics I read has had a story arc on swearing for the past few strips - Nodwick, starting here

10-26-2010, 07:34 AM	#148
Lemurion eReader Posts: 2,750 Karma: 4968470 Join Date: Aug 2007 Device: Note 5; PW3; Nook HD+; ChuWi Hi12; iPad	Here's a question, what if the expletive means more to the characters than the readers? For example I wrote a fantasy where the most common blasphemy is "Hammer it!" I don't think many readers here would have an issue with it; but it's actually fairly blasphemous in the context of the culture. It's calling for the Forger (creator deity) to destroy something with the Hammer of Creation - so it's not only requesting the deity destroy something, but that the deity pervert the tool of creation to do so. To my characters it's blasphemy, but would any reader care?

10-26-2010, 09:51 AM	#149
kindlekitten Professional Adventuress Posts: 13,368 Karma: 50260224 Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: The Olympic Peninsula on the OTHER Washington! (the big green clean one on the west coast!) Device: Kindle, the original! Times Two! and gifting an International Kindle	words only have the importance and impact that the reader/listener give them. remember the old saw; "sticks and stones may break my bones, but words will never hurt me." your perceptions and permission give negative words their impact

10-26-2010, 12:06 PM	#150
J. Strnad Guru Posts: 915 Karma: 3537194 Join Date: Feb 2009 Device: Kobo, Kindle 3, Paperwhite	My wife had been to the mall where a couple of teenagers were dropping f-bombs every few words. She told me, "That word is overused." Not long after that, she bumped her head while getting into the car and let out her own f-bomb. I couldn't help it. I had to say, "That word is overused." If looks could kill....

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