The Vent and Rant Thread

[Hitch]

Originally Posted by CRussel

Well, now that I'm retired, I _can_ just say it. With feeling. Though the one that really gets me is the misuse of "moot".

Charlie.

As in, you mooted the sound? That misuse?

Hitch

[CRussel]

Originally Posted by Hitch

As in, you mooted the sound? That misuse?

Hitch

As in, it's a moot point, using it to mean that it's already decided and not open for discussion. Which is, of course, quite opposite.

[Hitch]

Originally Posted by CRussel

As in, it's a moot point, using it to mean that it's already decided and not open for discussion. Which is, of course, quite opposite.

Unless I'm mistaken, the 2nd defintion--meaning, no point in discussing it because it has no real bearing on the matter, or is minuscule, has been around a long time.

If memory serves, it was b*stardized from the original British meaning not actually in common usage, but in law. I believe that the British legal term carried the original meaning--up for debate; but the American legal term it means not worth discussing.

Hitch

[BetterRed]

@Hitch - in what sense is a "moot" is US legal term? And where is 'moot' as meaning 'debatable' not in 'common usage'? It is widely and invariably used in that sense in the UK, Australia, New Zealand, Singapore, India etc.

Moot Courts are conducted in the Law schools in most Common Law countries and by some international legal institutions. AFAIK they do not have any legal standing. My guess is that that is where the USA gets its parochial usage of 'moot' to mean 'irrelevant'.

BR

[Hitch]

Originally Posted by BetterRed

@Hitch - in what sense is a "moot" is US legal term? And where is 'moot' as meaning 'debatable' not in 'common usage'? It is widely and invariably used in that sense in the UK, Australia, New Zealand, Singapore, India etc.

Moot Courts are conducted in the Law schools in most Common Law countries and by some international legal institutions. AFAIK they do not have any legal standing. My guess is that that is where the USA gets its parochial usage of 'moot' to mean 'irrelevant'.

BR

Hell, Red, you're making me reach back into the dim recesses...let's see...Leonhart v. McCormick--a case is "moot" when determinaton is sought on a matter which, when rendered, cannot have any practical effect on the existing controversy."

Under US law, "a moot point" means, one not settled by judicial decisions (thanks, Black's.). An action is considered "moot" when it no longer presents a justiciable controversy because issues involved have become academic or dead. (Black's).

If memory serves, the use of moot legally partly drives the discrepancy between how moot is used in the UK, versus how it's typically used here--but honestly, I don't recall where I first read that.

Hitch

[wodin]

Originally Posted by pdurrant

Oh dear. I know that one can't stop people doing silly things with words, and if enough people do it, then it becomes the new meaning.

But that's just not right.


Mind you, it's certainly not a word that I use anyway.

And I can't believe that everyone was homosexual during the gay nineties.

[badgoodDeb]

Originally Posted by Hitch

Hell, Red, you're making me reach back into the dim recesses...let's see...Leonhart v. McCormick--a case is "moot" when determinaton is sought on a matter which, when rendered, cannot have any practical effect on the existing controversy."

Under US law, "a moot point" means, one not settled by judicial decisions (thanks, Black's.). An action is considered "moot" when it no longer presents a justiciable controversy because issues involved have become academic or dead. (Black's).

If memory serves, the use of moot legally partly drives the discrepancy between how moot is used in the UK, versus how it's typically used here--but honestly, I don't recall where I first read that.

Hitch

I wonder if it is in any way related to the directly opposite usage of "tabling" a discussion. USA: to table a topic is to set it aside for a while and not talk about it now. UK: to table a topic is to BRING it to discussion, right now.

PS for "moot point" the only definition I'm familiar with is "no longer worth discussing because the issue has gone away". Such as a surgery being allow/disallowed but the patient has now died, so the contention is a moot point.

--------------
Not precisely an anger point for me, but I'm noticing how numerous phrases are being affected by the "no dangling thingy*" rule. People, when they die, no longer "pass on", they merely "pass". People, when they give in, no longer "cave in", they merely "cave". In 1990 neither of those was prevalent. Now the two-word form is nearly gone.


*correct word escapes me right now

[4691mls]

Originally Posted by Hitch

OH, NO NO NO NO NO. That's just effing wrong. I don't mind the somewhat normal evolution of language, but this constant bull with words suddenly meaning something completely opposite, as in "I could care less" is just wrong, wrong, wrong. WRONG. I will never use nonplussed to mean, unfazed. NOPE, NO NO.

Hitch

I HATE "I could care less"! For me, that one is right up there with misuse of "literally"

[badgoodDeb]

Originally Posted by 4691mls

I HATE "I could care less"! For me, that one is right up there with misuse of "literally"

"I could care less" has always been a "sarcasm-on" sentence. It's meant to mean the opposite of the actual words.

[Hitch]

Originally Posted by badgoodDeb

I wonder if it is in any way related to the directly opposite usage of "tabling" a discussion. USA: to table a topic is to set it aside for a while and not talk about it now. UK: to table a topic is to BRING it to discussion, right now.

PS for "moot point" the only definition I'm familiar with is "no longer worth discussing because the issue has gone away". Such as a surgery being allow/disallowed but the patient has now died, so the contention is a moot point.

--------------
Not precisely an anger point for me, but I'm noticing how numerous phrases are being affected by the "no dangling thingy*" rule. People, when they die, no longer "pass on", they merely "pass". People, when they give in, no longer "cave in", they merely "cave". In 1990 neither of those was prevalent. Now the two-word form is nearly gone.


*correct word escapes me right now

Don't say what the dangly should be, Hitch!

Sorry, couldn't resist.

Participles, mayhaps?

Hitch

[Hitch]

Originally Posted by badgoodDeb

"I could care less" has always been a "sarcasm-on" sentence. It's meant to mean the opposite of the actual words.

I disagree. I've never met anyone who uses it that understands it's wrong. I have always assumed it's just illiteracy.

Hitch

[Deskisamess]

Originally Posted by Hitch

I disagree. I've never met anyone who uses it that understands it's wrong. I have always assumed it's just illiteracy.

Hitch

Yep, same here.

I hear "spitting image" too often to count. I just read that in a book recently too, "She was the spitting image of her father..." It's "spit and image"

And "for all intensive purposes" instead of "intents and purposes"

"Past muster" for "passed muster" I also read that not too long ago. Pulled me right out of the story.

[wodin]

Originally Posted by badgoodDeb

...
PS for "moot point" the only definition I'm familiar with is "no longer worth discussing because the issue has gone away". Such as a surgery being allow/disallowed but the patient has now died, so the contention is a moot point.
...

That was my understanding too, having googled "moot" as a result of this discussion, I'm officially gobsmacked.

Around here moot means the same as OBE (overcome by events).

[wodin]

Originally Posted by badgoodDeb

I wonder if it is in any way related to the directly opposite usage of "tabling" a discussion. USA: to table a topic is to set it aside for a while and not talk about it now. UK: to table a topic is to BRING it to discussion, right now.
...

USA: And when is the last time you've actually seen a "tabled" issue brought up for discussion later? To table a discussion is to effectively kill it, without the necessity of voting.

Common Robert's Rules of Order maneuver. First Subsidiary motion.

[AnotherCat]

Originally Posted by Deskisamess

...I hear "spitting image" too often to count. I just read that in a book recently too, "She was the spitting image of her father..." It's "spit and image"...

I tend to use "spitting image" myself (although I am aware of "splitting image" and "spitten image") so I was prompted to check in case I was a word criminal.

According to the Oxford English Dictionary they are all acceptable and have the same meaning. It also says that it is "spitten image" that is the corruption of "spit and image".

It also gives "splitten image" as a dialect of "splitting image".