A Good Analogy - Page 5

sea2stars · 08-15-2007, 12:32 PM

I've read large PDFs on Tablet PCs before and they're great for the task; closer to an ereader.

Yeah. The market is confused. Is there even a leader pointing the way? How many of you have seen a Sony Reader ad out there? I haven't yet.

Steven Lyle Jordan · 08-15-2007, 03:02 PM

Sony's mainstream ads have been very few and far between. An ad recently appeared in the New York Times... in USA Today before Mother's Day... and another I remember being mentioned, but which I cannot find now.

I really have come to the conclusion that Sony does not expect the reader to become a mainstream device. They promote it among techies (see this thread), but not to John and Jane Q. Public. Makes you wonder what they were thinking when they developed the thing...

Likewise, the Connect Store seems more of a favor to the techies who bought the reader, rather than a site to entice newbies, and thereby sell more readers... iTunes it ain't.

sea2stars · 08-15-2007, 04:21 PM

Wonderful. So you're saying that Sony gets more advertising here, for free, than they bother with elsewhere? I guess when you're taking a huge loss on the PS3, to make up for it in game sales, you need to focus on where your advertising dollars are going.

NatCh · 08-15-2007, 04:51 PM

You could look at it that way, or you could see it as we're all helping ourselves and each other use our new toys to a greater extent than Sony may have dreamed, and if it happens that Sony gets good, free publicity out of it, then it really doesn't hurt us any.

The most effective marketing campaigns have always been word of mouth, the fact that they're usually also the cheapest doesn't really amount to much, since they're also usually the hardest to pull off on purpose.

sea2stars · 08-15-2007, 05:16 PM

True. Sony, and other companies, are lucky that there's a great community like this supporting its product. It would just be nice to know that they take the Reader seriously, embrace it and have the vision to move forward with it. Otherwise Fictionwise might have another ereader to offer in the future. Hrmm. A win-win situation I guess.

Then again, I can't complain. I got a great deal on the Reader. Which I learned about here of course.

True. The ipod was initially deemed a failure by industry, until word of mouth started spreading. Then Apple latched onto the white headphone icon in its advertising.

Steven Lyle Jordan · 08-15-2007, 05:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NatCh

The most effective marketing campaigns have always been word of mouth, the fact that they're usually also the cheapest doesn't really amount to much, since they're also usually the hardest to pull off on purpose.

I can attest to that!

But in fact, if the reader is a huge success on this site, it still doesn't amount to a drop in the bucket to Sony (any more than selling to everyone on this site would allow me to quit my day job). If it doesn't spread significantly beyond that, it effectively goes nowhere.

yvanleterrible · 08-16-2007, 09:02 AM

After reading this thread in one shot and stopping to think of it for a while, a list of ideas evolved in my twisted commercial mind, from the excellent ones that were previously enumerated.

If Apple just added the ebook to iTunes and a software patch to the screened devices, that would signify instant success.

There is a controversial form of advertisement that exists in movies that wouldn't bother me in the right context. Product placement. You know, where you see an 'X' brand of soft drink in the hands of an actor?
Well this idea in an ebook could be workable because of the ease of use the electronic format allows. Here's an example:
"Mac Bingham got out of his office, down to the street and unlocked the doors of his Corvette..."
Simple and easy, but the nice thing for sponsors is that depending on the crowd this advertising is meant to, they can just switch the name of the product. Depending also on the crowd, many sponsors of different markets could pitch in. Further in time sponsors could change too, again due to the e format. And in the copies meant for libraries and cultural preservation, the product names can just be omitted. This form of advertising could mean price breaks for the reading public and work for burgeoning writers.

If we use pages for advertising at the beginning or end of a book, the only products I would allow would have to be related to ebooks. Examples: Other books, computers, readers, related software, book stores and charity work, just as advertising is specialized in trade magazines.

Steven Lyle Jordan · 08-16-2007, 09:43 AM

Yvan,
Interesting idea about the iPods! I understand most of the screened devices can read text files now, so dedicated e-book SW isn't out of the question.

The malleable product placement idea is interesting, too, although as a writer, I might object to the connotations to a character changing because of changes to a product... in other words, James Bond isn't the same character when his Aston Martin is replaced with a Fiesta. Although I favor product placement as an advertising method, those products usually say something specific about the character involved, and I'm not sure that being able to change products will do the character, or the story, any good.

Remember, the advertiser only has to pay for the book once. Let his product stay there as long as the book is there.

Ads at the beginning or (preferably) end of a book can, I think, be related to any product the reader of that particular book might be interested in. If it's a cyberpunk book, computer hardware and games... If there's a sophisticated hero, Brooks Brothers suits and Razrs... If there's a sexy heroine, Victoria's Secret and Cover Girl... If there's an artist, painting supplies and Wacom Tablets... whatever. Of course, other books (and DVDs) about similar stories and characters. I personally wouldn't have a problem reading a sci-fi e-book and seeing ads for the DVD collections of Galactica and Babylon 5. And those would be things I'd likely buy, with the money I saved by getting FREE e-books!

yvanleterrible · 08-16-2007, 10:47 AM

The changing of name placement could be done under contract for a finite time limit. The fact that the book is written for electronic format would be perfect for that. Imagine you're a startup writer and all you can find as a sponsor is, for instance, your uncle's corner library. If the contract was defined for let's say two years at the end of which you renegociate, if your books are any good, you could negociate for a higher stake or even go to a bigger, richer company for a still higher price. That could be rewarding! Then all changes could be done to the book in a matter of minutes. In reverse though a sponsor could get a reduction, that's good for them but let's not go there.

Hey we have ebooks now, read: flexible, plastic, mobile format and content, let's use new ways of using those to the hilt! It is now that we have to find new uses. If we have now chosen to change the way we read, we should now change the way books are marketed and publicized.

nekokami · 08-16-2007, 11:47 AM

I'm not keen on product placement to begin with, and I really shudder at the idea of the text changing to serve the needs of advertisers. (Did anyone here see the movie "The Trueman Show"?) We may end up with this, just as we may end up with content that self-censors if it thinks the reader is underage or in a country with repressive content laws, but I'm not looking forward to it. I'd prefer to keep advertising and content separate.

Customizing the ads based on the content or the customer preferences/profile would be fine, though, as long as the ads are separate from the content.

yvanleterrible · 08-16-2007, 12:09 PM

Well I'm not against it as long as an official preservation copy is instituted.

Steven Lyle Jordan · 08-16-2007, 12:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nekokami

(Did anyone here see the movie "The Trueman Show"?)

Yeah, I remember The Truman Show... whenever I'm walking down the street, and I see someone who looks uncannily like someone I passed ten blocks ago, I get this weird feeling in the pit of my stomach...

Regarding product placement, if the arrangements are done ahead of time ("So, Mr. Jordan, if you can just have your hero show a preference for Lexus autos..."), and it works in context of the character/situation ("Dude... no one drives Lexus automobiles on Proxima Centauri!"), I'm okay with it. Changing that product later would be verboten if it changed the context of the story/character/situation in the slightest. I'm not going to rewrite a story to explain why a hard-nosed character likes to eat at Wendy's...

Steven Lyle Jordan · 08-16-2007, 12:57 PM

This actually reminds me of the latest in revisionist entertainment, where movies are edited to remove smoking among the characters. If you see a movie that features a product that has since lost its charm, that's no reason to airbrush it out. Consider it part of history, back when we all thought it was cool to smoke like chimneys, and move on.

Likewise, no one should be making an effort to replace the Edsel in an old movie with a Chrysler. We're not talking The Truman Show here, we're talking 1984.

nekokami · 08-16-2007, 05:56 PM

I have mixed feelings about the issue of smoking in movies. There's actually some reasonable research supporting the concern that teens watching smoking in movies are more likely to start smoking than teens who haven't (though apparently anti-smoking notices shown before the start of the film can mitigate this). This doesn't apply to older films, as they aren't shown in theaters (I'm not sure if the research around smoking on TV is the same), and even the organizations pushing for banning smoking in new films have no problems with exceptions for historical films about people who actually smoked (Churchill is the usually cited example, but Ed Murrow in Good Night and Good Luck is another --I guess they aren't worried about teens watching films about Churchill and Murrow anyway!)

And I haven't seen any research saying anyone is more likely to take up smoking after reading about a character smoking, so I guess it's irrelevant to books anyway.

Steven Lyle Jordan · 08-16-2007, 06:32 PM

Smoking is one of those unfortunate products, being popular before anyone realized how bad it was for you. If it was no worse than eating a candy bar, the movie stars would still be lighting up on-screen now.

There is more than enough evidence that any product used by a character that a viewer positively identifies with becomes desirable... that's why advertising works particularly well with models, sports figures and entertainers. The visual element is also established to be the most powerful of tools, which is why they work so well with TV and movies.

A novel has to be written well to create the "visual cues" in the reader's mind that will link a product to them, but it's doable. Beyond that, simply placing targeted ads in the book somewhere usually suffices.

08-16-2007, 09:02 AM	#67
yvanleterrible Reborn Paper User Posts: 8,616 Karma: 15446734 Join Date: May 2006 Location: Que Nada Device: iPhone8, iPad Air	After reading this thread in one shot and stopping to think of it for a while, a list of ideas evolved in my twisted commercial mind, from the excellent ones that were previously enumerated. If Apple just added the ebook to iTunes and a software patch to the screened devices, that would signify instant success. There is a controversial form of advertisement that exists in movies that wouldn't bother me in the right context. Product placement. You know, where you see an 'X' brand of soft drink in the hands of an actor? Well this idea in an ebook could be workable because of the ease of use the electronic format allows. Here's an example: "Mac Bingham got out of his office, down to the street and unlocked the doors of his Corvette..." Simple and easy, but the nice thing for sponsors is that depending on the crowd this advertising is meant to, they can just switch the name of the product. Depending also on the crowd, many sponsors of different markets could pitch in. Further in time sponsors could change too, again due to the e format. And in the copies meant for libraries and cultural preservation, the product names can just be omitted. This form of advertising could mean price breaks for the reading public and work for burgeoning writers. If we use pages for advertising at the beginning or end of a book, the only products I would allow would have to be related to ebooks. Examples: Other books, computers, readers, related software, book stores and charity work, just as advertising is specialized in trade magazines.

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version Email this Page	Search this Thread: Advanced Search

Similar Threads
Thread	Thread Starter	Forum	Replies	Last Post
eBook vs paper book analogy	Dave W	News	28	10-07-2009 03:12 PM

08-15-2007, 12:32 PM	#61
sea2stars Zealot Posts: 104 Karma: 64 Join Date: Dec 2006 Device: eb1150, Sony Reader	I've read large PDFs on Tablet PCs before and they're great for the task; closer to an ereader. Yeah. The market is confused. Is there even a leader pointing the way? How many of you have seen a Sony Reader ad out there? I haven't yet.

08-15-2007, 03:02 PM	#62
Steven Lyle Jordan Grand Sorcerer Posts: 8,478 Karma: 5171130 Join Date: Jan 2006 Device: none	Sony's mainstream ads have been very few and far between. An ad recently appeared in the New York Times... in USA Today before Mother's Day... and another I remember being mentioned, but which I cannot find now. I really have come to the conclusion that Sony does not expect the reader to become a mainstream device. They promote it among techies (see this thread), but not to John and Jane Q. Public. Makes you wonder what they were thinking when they developed the thing... Likewise, the Connect Store seems more of a favor to the techies who bought the reader, rather than a site to entice newbies, and thereby sell more readers... iTunes it ain't.

08-15-2007, 04:21 PM	#63
sea2stars Zealot Posts: 104 Karma: 64 Join Date: Dec 2006 Device: eb1150, Sony Reader	Wonderful. So you're saying that Sony gets more advertising here, for free, than they bother with elsewhere? I guess when you're taking a huge loss on the PS3, to make up for it in game sales, you need to focus on where your advertising dollars are going.

08-15-2007, 04:51 PM	#64
NatCh Gizmologist Posts: 11,615 Karma: 929550 Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Republic of Texas Embassy at Jackson, TN Device: Pocketbook Touch HD3	You could look at it that way, or you could see it as we're all helping ourselves and each other use our new toys to a greater extent than Sony may have dreamed, and if it happens that Sony gets good, free publicity out of it, then it really doesn't hurt us any. The most effective marketing campaigns have always been word of mouth, the fact that they're usually also the cheapest doesn't really amount to much, since they're also usually the hardest to pull off on purpose.

08-15-2007, 05:16 PM	#65
sea2stars Zealot Posts: 104 Karma: 64 Join Date: Dec 2006 Device: eb1150, Sony Reader	True. Sony, and other companies, are lucky that there's a great community like this supporting its product. It would just be nice to know that they take the Reader seriously, embrace it and have the vision to move forward with it. Otherwise Fictionwise might have another ereader to offer in the future. Hrmm. A win-win situation I guess. Then again, I can't complain. I got a great deal on the Reader. Which I learned about here of course. True. The ipod was initially deemed a failure by industry, until word of mouth started spreading. Then Apple latched onto the white headphone icon in its advertising.

08-16-2007, 09:43 AM	#68
Steven Lyle Jordan Grand Sorcerer Posts: 8,478 Karma: 5171130 Join Date: Jan 2006 Device: none	Yvan, Interesting idea about the iPods! I understand most of the screened devices can read text files now, so dedicated e-book SW isn't out of the question. The malleable product placement idea is interesting, too, although as a writer, I might object to the connotations to a character changing because of changes to a product... in other words, James Bond isn't the same character when his Aston Martin is replaced with a Fiesta. Although I favor product placement as an advertising method, those products usually say something specific about the character involved, and I'm not sure that being able to change products will do the character, or the story, any good. Remember, the advertiser only has to pay for the book once. Let his product stay there as long as the book is there. Ads at the beginning or (preferably) end of a book can, I think, be related to any product the reader of that particular book might be interested in. If it's a cyberpunk book, computer hardware and games... If there's a sophisticated hero, Brooks Brothers suits and Razrs... If there's a sexy heroine, Victoria's Secret and Cover Girl... If there's an artist, painting supplies and Wacom Tablets... whatever. Of course, other books (and DVDs) about similar stories and characters. I personally wouldn't have a problem reading a sci-fi e-book and seeing ads for the DVD collections of Galactica and Babylon 5. And those would be things I'd likely buy, with the money I saved by getting FREE e-books!

08-16-2007, 10:47 AM	#69
yvanleterrible Reborn Paper User Posts: 8,616 Karma: 15446734 Join Date: May 2006 Location: Que Nada Device: iPhone8, iPad Air	The changing of name placement could be done under contract for a finite time limit. The fact that the book is written for electronic format would be perfect for that. Imagine you're a startup writer and all you can find as a sponsor is, for instance, your uncle's corner library. If the contract was defined for let's say two years at the end of which you renegociate, if your books are any good, you could negociate for a higher stake or even go to a bigger, richer company for a still higher price. That could be rewarding! Then all changes could be done to the book in a matter of minutes. In reverse though a sponsor could get a reduction, that's good for them but let's not go there. Hey we have ebooks now, read: flexible, plastic, mobile format and content, let's use new ways of using those to the hilt! It is now that we have to find new uses. If we have now chosen to change the way we read, we should now change the way books are marketed and publicized.

08-16-2007, 11:47 AM	#70
nekokami fruminous edugeek Posts: 6,745 Karma: 551260 Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Northeast US Device: iPad, eBw 1150	I'm not keen on product placement to begin with, and I really shudder at the idea of the text changing to serve the needs of advertisers. (Did anyone here see the movie "The Trueman Show"?) We may end up with this, just as we may end up with content that self-censors if it thinks the reader is underage or in a country with repressive content laws, but I'm not looking forward to it. I'd prefer to keep advertising and content separate. Customizing the ads based on the content or the customer preferences/profile would be fine, though, as long as the ads are separate from the content.

08-16-2007, 12:09 PM	#71
yvanleterrible Reborn Paper User Posts: 8,616 Karma: 15446734 Join Date: May 2006 Location: Que Nada Device: iPhone8, iPad Air	Well I'm not against it as long as an official preservation copy is instituted.

08-16-2007, 12:57 PM	#73
Steven Lyle Jordan Grand Sorcerer Posts: 8,478 Karma: 5171130 Join Date: Jan 2006 Device: none	This actually reminds me of the latest in revisionist entertainment, where movies are edited to remove smoking among the characters. If you see a movie that features a product that has since lost its charm, that's no reason to airbrush it out. Consider it part of history, back when we all thought it was cool to smoke like chimneys, and move on. Likewise, no one should be making an effort to replace the Edsel in an old movie with a Chrysler. We're not talking The Truman Show here, we're talking 1984.

Advert

Advert

08-16-2007, 05:56 PM	#74
nekokami fruminous edugeek Posts: 6,745 Karma: 551260 Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Northeast US Device: iPad, eBw 1150	I have mixed feelings about the issue of smoking in movies. There's actually some reasonable research supporting the concern that teens watching smoking in movies are more likely to start smoking than teens who haven't (though apparently anti-smoking notices shown before the start of the film can mitigate this). This doesn't apply to older films, as they aren't shown in theaters (I'm not sure if the research around smoking on TV is the same), and even the organizations pushing for banning smoking in new films have no problems with exceptions for historical films about people who actually smoked (Churchill is the usually cited example, but Ed Murrow in Good Night and Good Luck is another --I guess they aren't worried about teens watching films about Churchill and Murrow anyway!) And I haven't seen any research saying anyone is more likely to take up smoking after reading about a character smoking, so I guess it's irrelevant to books anyway.

08-16-2007, 06:32 PM	#75
Steven Lyle Jordan Grand Sorcerer Posts: 8,478 Karma: 5171130 Join Date: Jan 2006 Device: none	Smoking is one of those unfortunate products, being popular before anyone realized how bad it was for you. If it was no worse than eating a candy bar, the movie stars would still be lighting up on-screen now. There is more than enough evidence that any product used by a character that a viewer positively identifies with becomes desirable... that's why advertising works particularly well with models, sports figures and entertainers. The visual element is also established to be the most powerful of tools, which is why they work so well with TV and movies. A novel has to be written well to create the "visual cues" in the reader's mind that will link a product to them, but it's doable. Beyond that, simply placing targeted ads in the book somewhere usually suffices.