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Old 09-25-2014, 03:10 PM   #16
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I think the problem for Kobo is if the publisher supplies an epub3, there is no simple way for Kobo to tell if the file does not actually use any epub3 features and would display OK in the Adobe renderer as an epub 2. So Kobo have to be cautious and assume the file will only render OK using their kepub renderer, hence no ADE download option.
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Old 09-25-2014, 03:41 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nate the great View Post
No.

And I got it to work. All that was required was that I delete and reinstall the Kobo app.
I'm long familiar with the command-line version supplied in TOOLS. This Calibre plugin version, however, seems to have appeared out of the blue. Any word on its pedigree?
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Old 09-25-2014, 03:52 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by oj829 View Post
I'm long familiar with the command-line version supplied in TOOLS. This Calibre plugin version, however, seems to have appeared out of the blue. Any word on its pedigree?
I got it from Lynx-lynx. He says he got it from a reliable source, wink-wink.
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Old 09-25-2014, 05:06 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by ShellShock View Post
I think the problem for Kobo is if the publisher supplies an epub3, there is no simple way for Kobo to tell if the file does not actually use any epub3 features and would display OK in the Adobe renderer as an epub 2. So Kobo have to be cautious and assume the file will only render OK using their kepub renderer, hence no ADE download option.
So how is it that ebooks.com is able to offer the exact same title as downloadable epub?
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Old 09-25-2014, 06:17 PM   #20
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So how is it that ebooks.com is able to offer the exact same title as downloadable epub?
Perhaps unlike Kobo, they haven't seen what a mess an epub3 ebook can be when viewed with an epub2 renderer? You might want to download some sample epub3 files -- you can download samples from Code.Google EPUB Samples, from Catto Creations or from Azardi Resources.

Quite a few of these look okay on my Kobo simply renamed to .kepub.epub to use the ACCESS renderer, others don't but virtually all look like a dog's breakfast when using the RMSDK renderer.

One of the few item JSWolf and I seem to agree on is that many publishers only support for "epub3" ebooks is changing the version from 2.0 to 3.0.
Last edited by DNSB; 09-25-2014 at 06:22 PM.
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Old 09-25-2014, 07:13 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by DNSB View Post
Quite a few of these look okay on my Kobo simply renamed to .kepub.epub to use the ACCESS renderer, others don't but virtually all look like a dog's breakfast when using the RMSDK renderer.
It seems to me Kobo may be starting to try to link format and rendering with the store/distribution methodology/DRM strategy.

Assuming you can read the epub version header and invoke the right render engine, why would you need a special semi-proprietary format?

Just to avoid licensing Adobe DRM technology?

"you can't download" seems to me to be purely a vertical lock-in strategy to link reader device to store in a closed ecosystem.

If I wanted technology and ecosystem lock in, I would have bought an Apple product. Or a Kindle.
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Old 09-25-2014, 07:18 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eric Carroll View Post
It seems to me Kobo may be starting to try to link format and rendering with the store/distribution methodology/DRM strategy.

Assuming you can read the epub version header and invoke the right render engine, why would you need a special semi-proprietary format?

Just to avoid licensing Adobe DRM technology?
That was the original reason that Kobo avoided using Adobe DRM internally, yes. But I don't know why that would have to extend to having a couple different rendering engines.
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Old 09-25-2014, 07:33 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by DNSB View Post
If the book is DRM free, you can download the kepub using the desktop app and locate the ebook on your computer. What I do then is to copy it to a temporary location and add a .epub to the file name.
I use the desktop app just for firmware maintainance. So this is good to know, thank you.
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Old 09-25-2014, 07:34 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by Nate the great View Post
That was the original reason that Kobo avoided using Adobe DRM internally, yes. But I don't know why that would have to extend to having a couple different rendering engines.
We're missing the obvious reason. To give bloggers a reason to post their meaningless observations and conjectures.
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Old 09-25-2014, 08:16 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by Eric Carroll View Post
But when I bought it, there was no Download epub button.

In talking to customer support they claimed this was due to it being an epub3 format.

When I challenged them on the DRM free point, they claimed it was the "new epub3 format", and that "epub3 format does not support download or sideloading".
I would take just about anything customer service says with several grains of salt. It sounds like they have a small but incorrect understanding of things. I can't imagine that epub3 specifically prevents downloads (DRM or not), but from Kobo's perspective they seem to want to use the Access renderer to "properly" handle epub3 rather than Adobe therefore it gets stuck as kepub. Likely they don't want to deal with the complaints of readers if epub3 doesn't work correctly in an epub2 renderer (can't imagine CS dealing with that).
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Old 09-25-2014, 08:20 PM   #26
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That was the original reason that Kobo avoided using Adobe DRM internally, yes. But I don't know why that would have to extend to having a couple different rendering engines.
How about so they could have a renderer capable of rendering vertical text for the Japanese market which they wouldn't have been able to do with the Adobe renderer.
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Old 09-25-2014, 09:51 PM   #27
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Tor is one of my publishers (as well as one of those for my friend, John Scalzi). The irony here is that Tor, unique even among divisions of Macmillan (its parent publisher), releases all its books DRM-free now (Tom Doherty, the publisher of Tor, is a silent partner in Baen Books, one of the pioneers in DRM-free ebooks from traditional publishers).

Kobo needs to get its act in order: if the publisher wants the book to be DRM free, and if the author (as John does) wants it to be DRM free, then there should be no hassles in getting a DRM-free ePub simply and directly downloaded to your computer.

Rob
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Old 09-25-2014, 10:27 PM   #28
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I got it from Lynx-lynx. He says he got it from a reliable source, wink-wink.
Same here. And that reliable source is reliable.
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Old 09-25-2014, 10:30 PM   #29
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So how is it that ebooks.com is able to offer the exact same title as downloadable epub?
Because they don't tinker with the ePub. Right now, I've not seen any eBook sold as just ePub that doesn't work with ADE. These ePub 3 are just ePub 3 with no ePub 3 specific features that would cause an ePub 2 renderer to barf.

Kobo is being paranoid and causing the customers all kinds of problems. Even after the Kobo DRM is removed and the kepub crap removed using the new Modify ePub, the ePub is still not nearly as neat as the un-kepubed ePub.

KOBO NEEDS TO STOP THIS NONSENSE OF CONVERTING ALL EPUB 3 TO KEPUB!
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Old 09-25-2014, 10:31 PM   #30
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One of the few item JSWolf and I seem to agree on is that many publishers only support for "epub3" ebooks is changing the version from 2.0 to 3.0.
It's slightly more then just changing the version number. It's adding in a NAV ToC and some meta tags in the OPF that can easily be deleted as they don't add anything to the ePub. But to convert back to ePub 2 is trivial.

This is the original ePub 3 OPF from Unlocked by John Scalzi (published by Tor)

Code:
<package xmlns="http://www.idpf.org/2007/opf" prefix="ibooks: http://vocabulary.itunes.apple.com/rdf/ibooks/vocabulary-extensions-1.0/" unique-identifier="pub-id" version="3.0">
	<metadata xmlns:dc="http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/" xmlns:opf="http://www.idpf.org/2007/opf">
		<dc:title id="t1" xml:lang="en">Unlocked</dc:title>
		<meta property="title-type" refines="#t1">main</meta>
		<meta property="display-seq" refines="#t1">1</meta>
		<dc:identifier id="pub-id">9781466871793</dc:identifier>
		<meta id="isbn" property="dcterms:identifer">urn:isbn:9781466871793</meta>
		<dc:creator id="auth1">John Scalzi</dc:creator>
		<meta property="role" refines="#auth1" scheme="marc:relators">aut</meta>
		<meta property="display-seq" refines="#auth1">1</meta>
		<meta property="file-as" refines="#auth1">Scalzi, John</meta>
		<dc:language>en</dc:language>
		<meta property="dcterms:language">en</meta>
		<dc:publisher>Tom Doherty Associates</dc:publisher>
		<meta property="dcterms:publisher">Tor</meta>
		<dc:rights>Copyright © 2014 John Scalzi</dc:rights>
		<dc:date>2014-04-12</dc:date>
		<meta property="dcterms:modified">2014-04-12T16:00:00Z</meta>
		<meta property="ibooks:version">2.0.0</meta> 
		<meta content="my_cover_image" name="cover"/>
	<description xmlns="http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/">&lt;p&gt;A new near-future science fiction novella by John Scalzi, one of the most popular authors in modern SF. &lt;I&gt;Unlocked&lt;/I&gt; traces the medical history behind a virus that will sweep the globe and affect the majority of the world's population, setting the stage for &lt;I&gt;Lock In&lt;/I&gt;, the next major novel by John Scalzi.&lt;br&gt;&lt;P&gt;At the publisher's request, this title is being sold without Digital Rights Management software (DRM) applied.&lt;/P&gt;</description>
</metadata>
	<manifest>
		<item href="nav.xhtml" id="nav" media-type="application/xhtml+xml" properties="nav"/>
		<item href="9781466871793_epub_ncx_r1.ncx" id="ncx" media-type="application/x-dtbncx+xml"/>
		<item href="OEBPS/cvi.xhtml" id="cvi" media-type="application/xhtml+xml"/>
		<item href="OEBPS/tp.xhtml" id="tp" media-type="application/xhtml+xml"/>
		<item href="OEBPS/ded.xhtml" id="ded" media-type="application/xhtml+xml"/>
		<item href="OEBPS/cop_not.xhtml" id="cop_not" media-type="application/xhtml+xml"/>
		<item href="OEBPS/toc.xhtml" id="toc" media-type="application/xhtml+xml"/>
		<item href="OEBPS/int.xhtml" id="int" media-type="application/xhtml+xml"/>
		<item href="OEBPS/p01.xhtml" id="p01" media-type="application/xhtml+xml"/>
		<item href="OEBPS/p02.xhtml" id="p02" media-type="application/xhtml+xml"/>
		<item href="OEBPS/p03.xhtml" id="p03" media-type="application/xhtml+xml"/>
		<item href="OEBPS/p04.xhtml" id="p04" media-type="application/xhtml+xml"/>
		<item href="OEBPS/p05.xhtml" id="p05" media-type="application/xhtml+xml"/>
		<item href="OEBPS/p06.xhtml" id="p06" media-type="application/xhtml+xml"/>
		<item href="OEBPS/teas.xhtml" id="teas" media-type="application/xhtml+xml"/>
		<item href="OEBPS/exc.xhtml" id="exc" media-type="application/xhtml+xml"/>
		<item href="OEBPS/oth.xhtml" id="oth" media-type="application/xhtml+xml"/>
		<item href="OEBPS/tor-ad.xhtml" id="tor-ad" media-type="application/xhtml+xml"/>
		<item href="OEBPS/cop.xhtml" id="cop" media-type="application/xhtml+xml"/>
		<item href="OEBPS/style.css" id="css" media-type="text/css"/>
		<item href="OEBPS/images/96-1.jpg" id="img96-1.jpg" media-type="image/jpeg"/>
		<item href="OEBPS/images/com.jpg" id="imgcom.jpg" media-type="image/jpeg"/>
		<item href="OEBPS/images/title_page.jpg" id="imgfpage" media-type="image/jpeg"/>
		<item href="OEBPS/images/Tordotcom_ad.jpg" id="imgfad" media-type="image/jpeg"/>
		<item href="OEBPS/images/cover.jpg" id="my_cover_image" media-type="image/jpeg"/>
<item href="OEBPS/fonts/CharisSILB.ttf" id="font1" media-type="application/x-font-ttf"/>
<item href="OEBPS/fonts/CharisSILBI.ttf" id="font2" media-type="application/x-font-ttf"/>
<item href="OEBPS/fonts/CharisSILI.ttf" id="font3" media-type="application/x-font-ttf"/>
<item href="OEBPS/fonts/CharisSILR.ttf" id="font4" media-type="application/x-font-ttf"/>
	</manifest>
	<spine toc="ncx">
		<itemref idref="cvi" linear="yes"/>
		<itemref idref="tp"/>
		<itemref idref="ded"/>
		<itemref idref="cop_not"/>
		<itemref idref="toc"/>
		<itemref idref="int"/>
		<itemref idref="p01"/>
		<itemref idref="p02"/>
		<itemref idref="p03"/>
		<itemref idref="p04"/>
		<itemref idref="p05"/>
		<itemref idref="p06"/>
		<itemref idref="teas"/>
		<itemref idref="exc"/>
		<itemref idref="oth"/>
		<itemref idref="tor-ad"/>
		<itemref idref="cop"/>
	</spine>
</package>
Here is the same OPF converted to ePub 2.

Code:
<?xml version='1.0' encoding='utf-8'?>
<package xmlns="http://www.idpf.org/2007/opf" unique-identifier="BookId" version="2.0">
  <metadata xmlns:dc="http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/" xmlns:opf="http://www.idpf.org/2007/opf">
    <dc:identifier id="BookId" opf:scheme="UUID">urn:uuid:d639d480-af40-45e3-a267-69fac5b090ef</dc:identifier>
    <dc:title>Lock 0.5 - Unlocked</dc:title>
    <dc:creator>John Scalzi</dc:creator>
    <dc:language>en</dc:language>
    <dc:publisher>Tom Doherty Associates</dc:publisher>
    <dc:rights>Copyright © 2014 John Scalzi</dc:rights>
    <dc:date>2014-04-12</dc:date>
    <meta name="cover" content="my_cover_image"/>
    <dc:description>&lt;p&gt;A new near-future science fiction novella by John Scalzi, one of the most popular authors in modern SF. &lt;I&gt;Unlocked&lt;/I&gt; traces the medical history behind a virus that will sweep the globe and affect the majority of the world's population, setting the stage for &lt;I&gt;Lock In&lt;/I&gt;, the next major novel by John Scalzi.&lt;br&gt;&lt;P&gt;At the publisher's request, this title is being sold without Digital Rights Management software (DRM) applied.&lt;/P&gt;</dc:description>
    <meta xmlns="http://www.idpf.org/2007/opf" content="0.7.4" name="Sigil version"/>
    <dc:date opf:event="modification">2014-08-26</dc:date>
  </metadata>
	<manifest>
		<item href="9781466871793_epub_ncx_r1.ncx" id="ncx" media-type="application/x-dtbncx+xml"/>
		<item href="OEBPS/cvi.xhtml" id="cvi" media-type="application/xhtml+xml"/>
		<item href="OEBPS/tp.xhtml" id="tp" media-type="application/xhtml+xml"/>
		<item href="OEBPS/ded.xhtml" id="ded" media-type="application/xhtml+xml"/>
		<item href="OEBPS/int.xhtml" id="int" media-type="application/xhtml+xml"/>
		<item href="OEBPS/p01.xhtml" id="p01" media-type="application/xhtml+xml"/>
		<item href="OEBPS/p02.xhtml" id="p02" media-type="application/xhtml+xml"/>
		<item href="OEBPS/p03.xhtml" id="p03" media-type="application/xhtml+xml"/>
		<item href="OEBPS/p04.xhtml" id="p04" media-type="application/xhtml+xml"/>
		<item href="OEBPS/p05.xhtml" id="p05" media-type="application/xhtml+xml"/>
		<item href="OEBPS/p06.xhtml" id="p06" media-type="application/xhtml+xml"/>
		<item href="OEBPS/oth.xhtml" id="oth" media-type="application/xhtml+xml"/>
		<item href="OEBPS/cop.xhtml" id="cop" media-type="application/xhtml+xml"/>
		<item href="OEBPS/style.css" id="css" media-type="text/css"/>
		<item href="OEBPS/images/96-1.jpg" id="img96-1.jpg" media-type="image/jpeg"/>
		<item href="OEBPS/images/title_page.jpg" id="imgfpage" media-type="image/jpeg"/>
		<item href="OEBPS/images/cover.jpg" id="my_cover_image" media-type="image/jpeg"/>
<item href="OEBPS/fonts/CharisSILB.ttf" id="font1" media-type="application/x-font-ttf"/>
<item href="OEBPS/fonts/CharisSILI.ttf" id="font3" media-type="application/x-font-ttf"/>
<item href="OEBPS/fonts/CharisSILR.ttf" id="font4" media-type="application/x-font-ttf"/>
	</manifest>
	<spine toc="ncx">
		<itemref idref="cvi" linear="yes"/>
		<itemref idref="tp"/>
		<itemref idref="ded"/>
		<itemref idref="int"/>
		<itemref idref="p01"/>
		<itemref idref="p02"/>
		<itemref idref="p03"/>
		<itemref idref="p04"/>
		<itemref idref="p05"/>
		<itemref idref="p06"/>
		<itemref idref="oth"/>
		<itemref idref="cop"/>
	</spine>
</package>
Most of the changes take place in the metadata section of the OPF. I did have to remove the NAV ToC and I removed the XML ToC (because this is ePub and we don't need it). Also had to delete those two files. But really, it's so very simple to go from ePub 3 to ePub 2 when the changes are just to be able to say it's an ePub 3.

Also, take a look at some of the meta property tags in the original OPF, they are just duplicating what we already have for meta tags. So why do we need these extranious duplicated property tags? We don't. There is not a single meta property tag that has any actual use. Take them all out and the ePub is not going to break. In fact, it's going to make the OPF smaller and easier to read.
Last edited by JSWolf; 09-25-2014 at 10:51 PM.
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