Do grammatical errors bother you? - Page 12

GeoffC · 10-25-2010, 09:43 AM

But that English teacher is only passing on what they were taught by their English teacher !?

Seanette · 10-25-2010, 09:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by patrickt

Really? My son's English teacher told him the things such as grammar, punctuation, spelling, and structure were not important and all that was important was his ideas. When I went and talked to the teacher she was shocked that I thought, yes, those things were important.

I'm sorry, this is a teacher? Not by MY standards she isn't!

I feel very sorry for her students when they discover that they're going to have BIG problems with college coursework or finding decent employment because she failed in the job she's being paid for, to give her students foundational knowledge of their language.

mrscoach · 10-25-2010, 10:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HarryT

The British rule is that commas and full stops only go inside quotes if they form a part of the material being quoted. The American rule is that they always go inside the quotes.

No, the American rules do NOT say to put all punctuation within the quotes. punctuation only goes IN the quotes if it goes with the actual quote, otherwise it goes OUTSIDE of the marks. In the example given it wasn't even a quote, so the comma goes after the quotation marks. The quotation marks around "right" were for emphasis, I believe. It might have been more correct to italicize "right", but this isn't a formal lesson, so I'll just say that it isn't incorrect to use quotes.

For use in a sentence with a quote. Correct: Did he say "I'm outta here"? or He said "I'm outta here", then sat at the table for another hour.

I will say it again about ain't. It IS a proper word. In Understanding English Grammar by Martha Kolln and Robert Funk it states on p. 9, "Written texts from the seventeenthand eighteenth centuries show that ain't was once a part of the conversational English of educated people in England and America." (period within quotes because that was the sentence) It continues on to say that sometime in the nineteenth century it fell out of use because it was stigmatized and marked speakers as uneducated and ignorant. Only because of popular use is the word less proper that it used to be.

RDaneel54 · 10-25-2010, 10:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrscoach

I will say it again about ain't. It IS a proper word. In Understanding English Grammar by Martha Kolln and Robert Funk it states on p. 9, "Written texts from the seventeenthand eighteenth centuries show that ain't was once a part of the conversational English of educated people in England and America." (period within quotes because that was the sentence) It continues on to say that sometime in the nineteenth century it fell out of use because it was stigmatized and marked speakers as uneducated and ignorant. Only because of popular use is the word less proper that it used to be.

Serious question: How about 'tis and 'tain't?

Another question: Do rules of English evolve? I worked for the U.S. Department of Defense for almost 40 years. During that time, what was considered acceptable in official correspondence changed innumerable times. I assume the changes were due, in part, to changes in usage. So, do changes in usage, over time, result in changes to the "rules of English"? (feels wrong to put the quotes before the question mark)

Dean

boxcorner · 10-25-2010, 10:18 AM

Edited by boxcorner

Lady Fitzgerald · 10-25-2010, 10:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrscoach

No, the American rules do NOT say to put all punctuation within the quotes. punctuation only goes IN the quotes if it goes with the actual quote, otherwise it goes OUTSIDE of the marks. In the example given it wasn't even a quote, so the comma goes after the quotation marks. The quotation marks around "right" were for emphasis, I believe. It might have been more correct to italicize "right", but this isn't a formal lesson, so I'll just say that it isn't incorrect to use quotes.

For use in a sentence with a quote. Correct: Did he say "I'm outta here"? or He said "I'm outta here", then sat at the table for another hour.

I will say it again about ain't. It IS a proper word. In Understanding English Grammar by Martha Kolln and Robert Funk it states on p. 9, "Written texts from the seventeenthand eighteenth centuries show that ain't was once a part of the conversational English of educated people in England and America." (period within quotes because that was the sentence) It continues on to say that sometime in the nineteenth century it fell out of use because it was stigmatized and marked speakers as uneducated and ignorant. Only because of popular use is the word less proper that it used to be.

Try telling all that to the English teachers I had. And (assuming they are still alive) I want to watch when you do.

mrscoach · 10-25-2010, 10:22 AM

I have to admit that proper grammar is NOT being as stressed in schools as it used to be. The current trend is to emphasize thought processes and ideas over technicalities. I'm not saying it is corrrect, but it is happening. Not that all grammar rules are ignored, but mistakes are overlooked more.

In my last school we were having to correct teachers who told their students NOT to indent paragraphs, but to skip a line instead. And this was on the state standardized test for NCLB (if you don't know what that is then count yourself lucky, schools in the US live and die by it). Rules for the test state to not put a title, or skip lines, but these students would put a title, skip several lines and then skip lines between paragraphs. Since they only have one page front and back, this makes it look like they are killing space to look like they have written more. No, the teachers that told them this weren't from our area, but another area of the state.

mrscoach · 10-25-2010, 10:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RDaneel54

Serious question: How about 'tis and 'tain't?

Another question: Do rules of English evolve? I worked for the U.S. Department of Defense for almost 40 years. During that time, what was considered acceptable in official correspondence changed innumerable times. I assume the changes were due, in part, to changes in usage. So, do changes in usage, over time, result in changes to the "rules of English"? (feels wrong to put the quotes before the question mark)

Dean

I don't know about 'tis and 'taint, but I think they would be more regional in use and not improper, just maybe not popular. Make sense?

Yes, English rules evolve. If a language's rules and words don't evolve they become dead (Latin anyone?).

Lady Fitzgerald · 10-25-2010, 10:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by patrickt

Really? My son's English teacher told him the things such as grammar, punctuation, spelling, and structure were not important and all that was important was his ideas. When I went and talked to the teacher she was shocked that I thought, yes, those things were important.

I would have ripped that so called teacher a new one immediately before filing complaints with the school board against her.

mrscoach · 10-25-2010, 10:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lady Fitzgerald

Try telling all that to the English teachers I had. And (assuming they are still alive) I want to watch when you do.

No, thanks. I would want to be in a bunker about a mile away before lobbing THAT particular grenade.

I said ain't is a word, I didn't say it was an accepted word. I just quit making a big deal out of it and explained that it really is a word, and what it means.

It is used in place of isn't, hasn't, haven't, and probably some others, but is really most proper for 'am not'. ie I ain't going to the store.

gca3020 · 10-25-2010, 10:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by patrickt

Really? My son's English teacher told him the things such as grammar, punctuation, spelling, and structure were not important and all that was important was his ideas. When I went and talked to the teacher she was shocked that I thought, yes, those things were important.

Hippie. She probably also "feels" that sports shouldn't have any losers, and doesn't "believe" in discipline. Or soap.

GeoffC · 10-25-2010, 10:41 AM

Is that washing soap, or the TV version ?

ShortNCuddlyAm · 10-25-2010, 10:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gca3020

Hippie. She probably also "feels" that sports shouldn't have any losers, and doesn't "believe" in discipline. Or soap.

How can you not believe in soap? There's evidence of it existing in every supermarket up and down the country!

slayda · 10-25-2010, 10:47 AM

Grammatical errors only bother me when they're different from my own normal grammatical errors. E.g. Growing up I heard something like, "I come to town this morning." I can stand to hear this but if they said, "I have came to town this morning." it really grates on my nerves.

Just what you're use to, I guess. Like I hate when people spell "a lot" as "alot".

gca3020 · 10-25-2010, 10:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ShortNCuddlyAm

How can you not believe in soap? There's evidence of it existing in every supermarket up and down the country!

Well played ShortNCuddlyAm; well played. Here is what I meant to write:

Quote:

Originally Posted by gca3020

Hippie. She probably also "feels" that sports shouldn't have any losers, and doesn't "believe" in using discipline. Or soap.

P.S. If an author types out a manuscript, is it still correct to say he or she "penned" it?

10-25-2010, 10:18 AM	#170
boxcorner »(°±°)« Posts: 826 Karma: 775629 Join Date: Oct 2010 Device: divisive reader	Edited by boxcorner Last edited by boxcorner; 10-26-2010 at 02:35 AM.

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10-25-2010, 09:43 AM	#166
GeoffC Chocolate Grasshopper ... Posts: 27,599 Karma: 20821184 Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Scotland Device: Muse HD , Cybook Gen3 , Pocketbook 302 (Black) , Nexus 10: wife has PW	But that English teacher is only passing on what they were taught by their English teacher !?

10-25-2010, 10:22 AM	#172
mrscoach Guru Posts: 767 Karma: 4837659 Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: San Angelo Texas Device: Samsung Galaxy tab	I have to admit that proper grammar is NOT being as stressed in schools as it used to be. The current trend is to emphasize thought processes and ideas over technicalities. I'm not saying it is corrrect, but it is happening. Not that all grammar rules are ignored, but mistakes are overlooked more. In my last school we were having to correct teachers who told their students NOT to indent paragraphs, but to skip a line instead. And this was on the state standardized test for NCLB (if you don't know what that is then count yourself lucky, schools in the US live and die by it). Rules for the test state to not put a title, or skip lines, but these students would put a title, skip several lines and then skip lines between paragraphs. Since they only have one page front and back, this makes it look like they are killing space to look like they have written more. No, the teachers that told them this weren't from our area, but another area of the state.

10-25-2010, 10:41 AM	#177
GeoffC Chocolate Grasshopper ... Posts: 27,599 Karma: 20821184 Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Scotland Device: Muse HD , Cybook Gen3 , Pocketbook 302 (Black) , Nexus 10: wife has PW	Is that washing soap, or the TV version ?

10-25-2010, 10:47 AM	#179
slayda Retired & reading more! Posts: 2,764 Karma: 1884247 Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: North Alabama, USA Device: Kindle 1, iPad Air 2, iPhone 6S+, Kobo Aura One	Grammatical errors only bother me when they're different from my own normal grammatical errors. E.g. Growing up I heard something like, "I come to town this morning." I can stand to hear this but if they said, "I have came to town this morning." it really grates on my nerves. Just what you're use to, I guess. Like I hate when people spell "a lot" as "alot".

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