Boy am I now confused

[rlauzon]

Originally Posted by sianon

Yes it is worth it to me. The last new release fiction print book which I purchased cost me $33, yes this will stay in my bookshelf as it is by one of my favorite authors who I tend to reread frequently (as some one else called it, comfort books). The majority of new release e-books are cheaper than I would pay here in Australia for the print equivalent.

But (like HarryT) you still keep avoiding the question:

Which has better value?
A) Pay $20, use it, throw it away.
B) Pay $20, use it, get some money for it.

If you walked into a store and they offered you 2 options:
1) Pay $20, get an eBook that you can read once and then throw away.
2) Pay $20, get a pBook that you read once, but if you bring it back, they will give you $10 store credit for it.

Which option would most people choose?

The answer is obviously 2.

So why should we buy eBooks when pBooks continue to give us better value?

Until eBooks offer better value, they will never gain acceptance, and DRM does nothing but offer less in the way of value.

[nekokami]

My mother buys books, takes them on trips, and leaves them in hotel rooms when she's done. It's hard for me to fathom, as I like to collect and re-read books, but different folks have different opinions about this. I can respect that. I guess not everyone does.

[jasonkchapman]

Originally Posted by rlauzon

If you walked into a store and they offered you 2 options:
1) Pay $20, get an eBook that you can read once and then throw away.
2) Pay $20, get a pBook that you read once, but if you bring it back, they will give you $10 store credit for it.

I think what some of us are trying to say is that they have the same value, because we just can't be bothered to drag the damn think back to the store. If it's worth $20 to read the book, then it's worth $20--regardless of format.

When it comes to markets, absolute value has little meaning. It's perceived value that rules. Obviously, some of us see them both as having the same perceived value. Others disagree. I can live with that. The relative sizes of those groups will eventually determine which way the market goes.

[nekokami]

Maybe rlauzon believes he has to convince the rest of us to agree with him, or the market won't go in the direction he wants?

[NatCh]

Originally Posted by rlauzon

Which has better value?
A) Pay $20, use it, throw it away.
B) Pay $20, use it, get some money for it.

If you walked into a store and they offered you 2 options:
1) Pay $20, get an eBook that you can read once and then throw away.
2) Pay $20, get a pBook that you read once, but if you bring it back, they will give you $10 store credit for it.

Which option would most people choose?

The answer is obviously 2.

Okay, here's a direct answer to your question: the mathematics of the deal are not the only factor to every person.

In a pure mathematic evaluation, you're absolutely correct.

However, when non-mathematic factors get tossed in there, others may (and some clearly do, as all these counter-examples indicate) find that those other factors are more important to them than the money side of things.

Convenience has a value too, or have you never paid a premium to get a candy bar and a soda at the quickie mart?

Not having to store, or take back the book (as someone else mentioned) has a value. Those are both factors you're leaving out.

Then there's the "I just don't care about the money I'd get back from selling them" factor.

You're tossing around a 50% return rate, that's a wee bit disingenuously optimistic -- I recently sold 5 whole boxes (big ones too) of books, mostly hardbacks (around 80 or so, at a guess), and got back ... (wait for it) ... thirty whole dollars. (I like to think of it as $30 worth of empty shelf space )

Was that worth my time and effort in sorting them out and carrying them up there? That's for me to decide for myself, and my decision might well be different than yours because I'm coming from a different set of circumstances. I think that for me, I'll probably just donate the next batch to a library, because the minor amount of money isn't worth it, and giving them to a library will do more good, in my thinking, than selling them to the used book store.

Again, it's not that we think that what you're saying is wrong, nor that we don't get it, it's just that different people weight different factors differently.

And that's okay.

We don't all have to agree or think the same about the same things, in fact it'd get pretty boring if we did.

[nekokami]

Last time I tried to donate boxes of books to the town library, they threw away most of them (or tried to, anyway -- I heard about it and was able to rescue some of the boxes to take to a charity thrift store). They said they didn't even want them for the monthly book sale. I guess that library gets too many donations.

I've moved since then (which is why I was culling the library in the first place), and I understand the library in our new town accepts more books. I just have a hard time accepting the idea of books going into a dumpster. I know they're not like kittens you have to find a good home for, but still!

And again, I may take books I can replace with non-DRM or strippable DRM to a nearby SF store that carries used books, but I don't know as I'd get much in return, other than store credit... and the point is to reduce physical inventory. But at least I'd feel like the books had a better chance of finding readers there.

[RWood]

Years ago my Father would go to a local bookstore every Friday when the new pulps (Travis McGee, Matt Helm, Spencer, etc) were put up and buy 5 or so books. He would then spend the weekend on the couch watching baseball and reading the books. When he was finished they would go in a grocery sack (paper in those days) and when the sack was full he took them to a retirement home.

With most of the paperbacks I have maintained the same read and throw away. (Except for a complete Bantam Doc Savage series.)

The stuff going out now is 95% hardbound.

[sianon]

Originally Posted by rlauzon

But (like HarryT) you still keep avoiding the question:

Which has better value?
A) Pay $20, use it, throw it away.
B) Pay $20, use it, get some money for it.

If you walked into a store and they offered you 2 options:
1) Pay $20, get an eBook that you can read once and then throw away.
2) Pay $20, get a pBook that you read once, but if you bring it back, they will give you $10 store credit for it.

Which option would most people choose?

The answer is obviously 2.

It's not a matter of avoiding the question. It simply has no relevance to me. But since you require a direct answer, YES on the surface the second options does appear to have greater value. I go to Borders Bookshop and spend over a certain amount (usually on photographic books) and I receive a voucher that provides me with a discount on my next purchase. Invariably I don't bother with this as the next time I purchase books the voucher has run out.

With fictionwise, I get a rebate on the ebooks (regardless of whether DRM or not) I purchase which remains until I have built up sufficient rebate to purchase an ebook at no cost.

To me the world of ebooks is one of convenience and also provides me with fiction at a very reasonable price. Fiction remains very much for me a one off entertainment experience.

Karen

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by sianon

To me the world of ebooks is one of convenience and also provides me with fiction at a very reasonable price. Fiction remains very much for me a one off entertainment experience.

Karen

Same with me, Karen. That's why DRM doesn't bother me, because I rarely re-read books, and never bother selling them. Unless it's an exceptional book, it's a case of read it and throw it in the trash. For me, a $6 book is in the same category as a $6 movie or a $6 pizza - "one time" entertainment.

[rlauzon]

Originally Posted by nekokami

Maybe rlauzon believes he has to convince the rest of us to agree with him, or the market won't go in the direction he wants?

Based on what I see as far as sales for used books, I really don't worry too much about that.

Plus, the publishers still keep crying about "poor eBook sales." So, obviously, most people agree with me that DRM represents poor value.

[rlauzon]

Originally Posted by NatCh

Convenience has a value too, or have you never paid a premium to get a candy bar and a soda at the quickie mart?

Actually, no. Back when I ate junk food, it had to be cheap junk food. Paying a premium for junk is not something that I do - another reason I don't pay for DRMed eBooks.

Originally Posted by NatCh

Not having to store, or take back the book (as someone else mentioned) has a value. Those are both factors you're leaving out.

Not at all. Re-read my message. I didn't say anything about spending time and effort packing up your books and hauling them somewhere.

I simply said:
"2) Pay $20, get a pBook that you read once, but if you bring it back, they will give you $10 store credit for it."

Since you are a book reader, you probably go back to the bookstore frequently. You finish the book, head over to the bookstore with your old book, and trade it in while shopping for a new one.

Originally Posted by NatCh

You're tossing around a 50% return rate, that's a wee bit disingenuously optimistic

The last books I sold I got 80% of what I paid for them.

But it will depend on the book. An old trade paperback probably won't go for anything. Other books will go for more.

But we were discussing DRMed eBooks - which are priced higher than hardcover pBooks. So, to keep the comparisons the same, we need to think about hardcovers, not cheap paperbacks.

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by rlauzon

Plus, the publishers still keep crying about "poor eBook sales." So, obviously, most people agree with me that DRM represents poor value.

I suspect that it has far more to do with the fact that large-screen bookreaders are still expensive devices, and that most people don't like reading on small PDAs. I doubt that it has anything to do with DRM (although I could of course be wrong).

It would be interesting to know the breakdown of DRM vs. non-DRM book sales from a company like Fictionwise, who sell both. I've never seen any figures like that published - have you?

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by rlauzon

But we were discussing DRMed eBooks - which are priced higher than hardcover pBooks. So, to keep the comparisons the same, we need to think about hardcovers, not cheap paperbacks.

You can't generalise about that. Many of the MobiPocket DRM books that Fictionwise sell are in the $5-7 price range.

Equally, there are very expensive eBooks which don't have DRM - eg Tor sell David Weber's "Off Armageddon Reef" DRM-free via Baen's web site at $18.

There are cheap and expensive eBooks both with and without DRM.

[rlauzon]

Originally Posted by HarryT

It would be interesting to know the breakdown of DRM vs. non-DRM book sales from a company like Fictionwise, who sell both. I've never seen any figures like that published - have you?

Actually, I haven't. I'd like to see those numbers as well.

But the fact that services that only sell DRMed content go out of business, while services that sell non-DRMed content are still around says alot.

[jasonkchapman]

Originally Posted by rlauzon

But the fact that services that only sell DRMed content go out of business, while services that sell non-DRMed content are still around says alot.

Wouldn't that indicate that the market has already decided and that all of this is moot? It sounds like it's already a done deal. Any new ventures coming out that only sell DRMed content will face the same fate, and any publishers who fear non-DRMed content will continue to stay out of the pool.

I can live with that.