Seriously thoughtful Unbelievable! (not allowed to show the flag)

[wodin]

Originally Posted by Moejoe

Then we strip away the power. Also, it has to change because the power structures we have in place; religion, politics, capitalism are rapidly failing.

As are communism and socialism.

[Moejoe]

Originally Posted by Sparrow

I have some sympathy with the philosophy of anarchy (what little I know of it) - but then it occurs to me that we live in societies that were spawned from anarchy, and something similar would re-emerge if anarchy came to pass again.

Was it Proudhon (?) who said "Once all men were free, until a fool said 'This is mine', and a bigger fool believed him." It'd happen again.

There is always a risk, but then what options do we have left? We have to move forward in all things or we die. Capitalism is dying, the only change that's occurred is that the rich are getting richer and the poor are getting poorer over time. And no form of communism has worked because again, it's another hierarchy that is open to too much top down abuse. So you ask yourself a few questions:

What is fair for all? What should be fair for all? Is this achievable?

For me there are three cornerstones of this that are doable right now and I don't think anybody, whether they think it is achievable or not, would not want this for everyone else:

1. Shelter for everyone.
2. Food and water for all.
3. Education for all.

When you don't have to worry about food or shelter and you're educated, then anything is possible. As communities we can grow foods, care for each other, manufacture goods (with the workers owning everything whichever stage of manufacture they happen to be), exchange goods for services or swap out goods. The system won't have the same abundance of material goods as capitalism, but then again no kid will ever starve or be homeless...fair trade as far as I'm concerned.

As communities what we do will affect everyone else and so we'll take pride in our achievements, whether that's as a teacher or someone who fixes the drains (each job might be swappable depending on the need of the community). Money will still be around, business will still run, but the bottom line won't be profits...it will be people. Your neighbours good health will be your concern. The plants, the ecology of your town or city or the plant where you manufacture goods, will concern all around you.

We stand now inactive, voiceless, in a system that is resistant to any change for the better and produces excess and damage in the pursuit of profits (BP Oil spill). A system so corrupt that children in the biggest Empire still go hungry while a war machine continues to eat into Trillions of dollars worth of taxpayer money. A war that cannot be won against an enemy that can never be defeated because they are a fiction created by the war machine itself.


So I ask then what is real? The pittance the machine pays you so that you may pay it back into the machine only for it to crush you in the end? Or will you choose the well being of your friends and neighbours, your community, the world? The choice is stark, but I believe it will be made very soon.

[Moejoe]

Originally Posted by wodin

As are communism and socialism.

Communism failed a long time ago. To be truthful it never got off the ground wherever it was supposedly working (Stalin and Leninism were merely dictatorship that stripped the flesh from Marx's ideology. China is a state-capitalist dictatorship.). Socialism is a different beast, it still has a chance, although it has to be stripped of any statist notions and avoid being lumped in with any of the more neo-con elements of libertarianism.

[Sparrow]

Originally Posted by Moejoe

There is always a risk, but then what options do we have left? We have to move forward in all things or we die.

I think I'm basically optimistic, and believe we will naturally evolve into more compassionate societies.
Hundreds of years ago people were only bothered with themselves or their families, then it was their village, their tribe, their race, their nation etc etc.
We seem to see compassion and empathy spreading out like ripples in a pond, and I think this will continue.
But a large part of it is because we have greater prosperity and education, and can therefore afford the luxury of compassion and generosity towards others. For the poor and uneducated things are very different. It will take time, but I think the more people who enjoy the benefits of prosperity and education the 'better' our societies will become.
But it will be a natural process, not an artificial one imho.

[Moejoe]

Originally Posted by Sparrow

I think I'm basically optimistic, and believe we will naturally evolve into more compassionate societies.
Hundreds of years ago people were only bothered with themselves or their families, then it was their village, their tribe, their race, their nation etc etc.
We seem to see compassion and empathy spreading out like ripples in a pond, and I think this will continue.
But a large part of it is because we have greater prosperity and education, and can therefore afford the luxury of compassion and generosity towards others. For the poor and uneducated things are very different. It will take time, but I think the more people who enjoy the benefits of prosperity and education the 'better' our societies will become.
But it will be a natural process, not an artificial one imho.

I tend to agree, and I do believe that on a basic level we all want the same things for ourselves and each other; a life that's not too painful and a little joy along the way. The important thing is that we don't stop trying to achieve that goal.

[omk3]

I love how this discussion turned out
And all the optimism and good feelings.

Our societies are certainly better than before, and there is a tendency to more compassion.
There is also hate, violence, bigotry, fanaticism. There is war.
And of course there is still poverty, there is still lack of education. There is still deficient education, even misleading education, which is sometimes worse than no education at all.
I do believe that if every one of us tries to do the right thing by themselves and others, we will naturally evolve into better societies.
I don't believe the other stuff will go away. Unfortunately.
But we can always hope, and start the change from ourselves, I guess.

One thing I was told once and that I found surprising, is that actually meeting groups of people for whom you hold certain prejudices tends to reinforce these prejudices rather than the opposite. I've found it to be bizarrely true in many cases.
The global community is a good step towards global understanding and the bridging of different cultures.
It is also a huge battleground which everyone enters full of prejudices and often leaves having changed none of them.

[ShortNCuddlyAm]

scratch that, too depressing

[astra]

Unfortunately, there is a lot of demagogy in this topic, and people who actually care and do something about it are being criticised.

[kindlekitten]

Originally Posted by astra

Unfortunately, there is a lot of demagogy in this topic, and people who actually care and do something about it are being criticised.

unfortunately that is all too typical

[Bilbo1967]

Originally Posted by astra

Unfortunately, there is a lot of demagogy in this topic, and people who actually care and do something about it are being criticised.

Originally Posted by kindlekitten

unfortunately that is all too typical

I'll translate the above quotes for our international membership:

"I disagree with certain people in this thread, but I do not have the intellectual capacity to cogently argue with them"

[recluse]

Are you the only one stroking your ego or do you pay people to do it?

The correct translation is "We don't have to sink to their level because, outside the protection of the Forums, they are nonentities."

[omk3]

What level is this?
I thought that we were having a perfectly civilised discussion, and criticism is not a bad word as far as I know.
Thank you for calling me a non-entity, I thought you too were enjoying the chatting without name-calling.

[Moejoe]

Originally Posted by recluse

Are you the only one stroking your ego or do you pay people to do it?

The correct translation is "We don't have to sink to their level because, outside the protection of the Forums, they are nonentities."

I offer olive branches and all you can do in return is snap them?

Fine. From this non-entity to another, blocked. Have a nice day.

[recluse]

Bilbo1967 is the one that started the name calling. "..lack of intellectual capacity..." I fired back at Bilbo1967. No more, no less.

I notice no one reprimanded him.

My apologies.

[ShortNCuddlyAm]

Originally Posted by omk3

What level is this?
I thought that we were having a perfectly civilised discussion, and criticism is not a bad word as far as I know.
Thank you for calling me a non-entity, I thought you too were enjoying the chatting without name-calling.

Originally Posted by Moejoe

I offer olive branches and all you can do in return is snap them?

Fine. From this non-entity to another, blocked. Have a nice day.

???

ehwha? It was pretty obvious to me that Recluse was responding to Bilbo1967.

What I'm unsure of is whether Bilbo was responding to KK, Astra or just referring to the people they were referring to...

Edited to add: read all posts before responding