Seriously thoughtful Unbelievable! (not allowed to show the flag)

[SpiderMatt]

Originally Posted by J. Strnad

Damn that Obama! Apparently he personally marched up to this man and ripped the flag out of his window, then burned it and marched around the flames with his finger over his lip like a Hitler moustache. And the First Lady, dressed in a burqua, stood there and did nothing! Shameful!

Yeah, I saw that when the story was picked up by CNN. Crazy, huh?

[Sparrow]

Originally Posted by WT Sharpe

Striving for the betterment of the country is not unAmerican, and should never be so labeled. It is the very essence of patriotism.

I hope that eventually there won't be any countries, and the world will be united - the idea of the UK still existing in a thousand year's time is depressing, it'd indicate a lack of progress by humanity imho.
If nothing else, continental drift will jumble the map and make it unrecognisable.
Countries as geological entities are fleeting; and while patriotism has its appeal, it also seems a bit short-sighted to me.

[astra]

Originally Posted by Sparrow

I hope that eventually there won't be any countries, and the world will be united - the idea of the UK still existing in a thousand year's time is depressing, it'd indicate a lack of progress by humanity imho.

No countries? No different customs, traditions? One big herd of human beings, just like sheep or camels?
I am sure I won't live that long to be a part of such degraded society. Well it will not be society anymore, just a herd of sheep or a bunch of clones.

Mark Twain
"Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect."

— Mark Twain

[Sparrow]

Originally Posted by astra

No countries? No different customs, traditions?

But different customs and traditions already co-exist happily within countries.

[Spoon Man]

Sure, some do. Others not so much. I see where you are coming from Sparrow, a bit of John Linden within and all that. I can't say that I think it can happen without some really serious disaster that kills A LOT of people and makes some things unusable. And, the way I see it anyway, it can't happen with government.

[Halk]

I've just read http://www.theonion.com/articles/las...america,17545/ and it made me think of this thread, the picture is particularly amusing I think!

[omk3]

Originally Posted by Sparrow

I hope that eventually there won't be any countries, and the world will be united - the idea of the UK still existing in a thousand year's time is depressing, it'd indicate a lack of progress by humanity imho.
If nothing else, continental drift will jumble the map and make it unrecognisable.
Countries as geological entities are fleeting; and while patriotism has its appeal, it also seems a bit short-sighted to me.

Originally Posted by astra

No countries? No different customs, traditions? One big herd of human beings, just like sheep or camels?
I am sure I won't live that long to be a part of such degraded society. Well it will not be society anymore, just a herd of sheep or a bunch of clones.

— Mark Twain

Is it your country and your flag that makes you unique? Really? Actually, people that feel that their flag is the main (if not only) thing that identifies and differentiates them look more like sheep to me.
Countries are already arbitrary enough. It's not geography, or customs, or genealogy that defines them. It's just a flag ,and history taught at schools (often a bit tweaked to support the sense of patriotism and unity a country 'needs'), and a slightly (or not so slightly) different set of laws. That's all.

[Moejoe]

Seems to me that patriots and flag wavers are the hapless victims of a controlling authority that benefits from their unwavering and unquestioning support. Authority figure A tells said patriot at an early age that the flag (and country) means A, B, C and that to not support the flag, or gesture towards the flag with a militaristic salute or pledge to some bearded sky captain is antithetical to the meanings laid down in A, B and C. But the meanings of A, B and C are arbitrary and simplistic (they have to be to appeal to the patriots who in many respects remain childlike in their understanding of the world) and otherwise applicable to everyone whatever soil might be beneath their feet or whichever piece of cloth flies over their buildings.

Following on from this line of thought, I'd venture a guess and say that patriotism and the veneration of flags is the result of early indoctrination that has gone unquestioned in the individual beyond the age of reason.

Patriotism (and by extension the veneration of flags) might then be understood as the unquestioning belief beyond logic in an emotive and simplistic vision of what has never been, what is not and what will never be.

[pdurrant]

Originally Posted by Sparrow

I hope that eventually there won't be any countries, and the world will be united - the idea of the UK still existing in a thousand year's time is depressing, it'd indicate a lack of progress by humanity imho.
If nothing else, continental drift will jumble the map and make it unrecognisable.
Countries as geological entities are fleeting; and while patriotism has its appeal, it also seems a bit short-sighted to me.

A slight order of magnitude error. For example,

Africa is drifting towards Europe at about 0.02m/year. That means it'll take about 750,000 years for the Mediterranean to be cut off from the Atlantic.

Quite a short time in terms of Earth's history, but rather a long time in terms of recorded human history. Humans will jumble (or possibly unite) the nations of the world much more than 100 times faster than continental drift can mange it.

[Spoon Man]

Moejoe, you paint a picture that some people do fall in to, and unfortunately like children those people are rather loud and obnoxious and get a lot of attention.

Originally Posted by Moejoe

Seems to me that patriots and flag wavers are the hapless victims of a controlling authority that benefits from their unwavering and unquestioning support. Authority figure A tells said patriot at an early age that the flag (and country) means A, B, C and that to not support the flag, or gesture towards the flag with a militaristic salute or pledge to some bearded sky captain is antithetical to the meanings laid down in A, B and C. But the meanings of A, B and C are arbitrary and simplistic (they have to be to appeal to the patriots who in many respects remain childlike in their understanding of the world) and otherwise applicable to everyone whatever soil might be beneath their feet or whichever piece of cloth flies over their buildings.

Following on from this line of thought, I'd venture a guess and say that patriotism and the veneration of flags is the result of early indoctrination that has gone unquestioned in the individual beyond the age of reason.

There are those of us, however, that actually have (and still do) question the motives and actions of our "ancestors". We understand that our history is not of the greatest merit, but there are those things, those gems, that make us willing to stand by the flag set forth by those individuals and pledge allegiance to the idea that they had of our country.

Originally Posted by Moejoe

Patriotism (and by extension the veneration of flags) might then be understood as the unquestioning belief beyond logic in an emotive and simplistic vision of what has never been, what is not and what will never be.

I don't find myself very liking of those individuals which just spew what they've been told by their parents. And I don't like parents who don't encourage their children to see things for themselves. I don't believe that a functioning human being is one who does not realize the world for themselves. That being said, I believe that you and I are agreeing in this belief. I don't think we roll together with the same ideas of king and country, but that is all well and good.

[Sparrow]

Originally Posted by pdurrant

A slight order of magnitude error. For example,

Africa is drifting towards Europe at about 0.02m/year. That means it'll take about 750,000 years for the Mediterranean to be cut off from the Atlantic.

Quite a short time in terms of Earth's history, but rather a long time in terms of recorded human history. Humans will jumble (or possibly unite) the nations of the world much more than 100 times faster than continental drift can mange it.

Yes, I wasn't meaning to imply continental drift operated on a scale of thousands of years - just pointing out that our various countries haven't always existed, and there will come a time (one way or another) when they will disappear.

[Moejoe]

Originally Posted by Spoon Man

Moejoe, you paint a picture that some people do fall in to, and unfortunately like children those people are rather loud and obnoxious and get a lot of attention.



There are those of us, however, that actually have (and still do) question the motives and actions of our "ancestors". We understand that our history is not of the greatest merit, but there are those things, those gems, that make us willing to stand by the flag set forth by those individuals and pledge allegiance to the idea that they had of our country.



I don't find myself very liking of those individuals which just spew what they've been told by their parents. And I don't like parents who don't encourage their children to see things for themselves. I don't believe that a functioning human being is one who does not realize the world for themselves. That being said, I believe that you and I are agreeing in this belief. I don't think we roll together with the same ideas of king and country, but that is all well and good.

So then your veneration of the flag is an illogical act without any true meaning beyond some kind of emotional attachment that was instilled during childhood? This is the only explanation I can come up with for your deference to a symbolic piece of cloth. You prove my hypothesis that what you (and most patriots) are really pledging allegiance toward is the notion of what once was (a wholly false notion when placed into historical context). You, in full knowledge as an adult human being, are aware of the atrocities, the damage and the inhuman acts carried out under the auspices of your flag and country, yet you still choose to believe and stand by the flag and country as a person, ignoring all the verifiable bad and instead putting your faith (and this is the only word that can be used) in the made up notions of what once was.

There is no logical reason in your continued relationship with the flag. The symbol, the notions of which you speak as though they belonged only to that flag, your country and those who formed your country (slavers to a man), needs neither flags, national identity nor veneration, although said notions are to be admired wherever and in whomever they occur.

For me it's not the unthinking patriots that do the most harm (they're too stupid to know the difference and are truly children in every aspect), but those, like you, who are willing with full knowledge to remain diligent to an invented notion of country that was instilled in them at a young age and that has never been true. You, and those like you, are the most dangerous of all patriots, because you are the ones who after rational investigation of the facts decided that you will ignore the evidence and carry on as though the evidence no longer matters or should matter. It is the same behaviour that occurs in cults and religions. The same childlike willingness to give into authority figures and their voices that guarantees the ideas of freedom you're told you have, that you salute when you salute the flag, will never actually occur to yourself or those near to you.

[pdurrant]

Originally Posted by Sparrow

Yes, I wasn't meaning to imply continental drift operated on a scale of thousands of years

I didn't think you were. Astonishingly, there are people who do believe that. Or rather, that it's possible for the tectonic plates to move at speeds of 3 m/s, rather than 0.03m/year!

[WT Sharpe]

Originally Posted by pdurrant

I didn't think you were. Astonishingly, there are people who do believe that. Or rather, that it's possible for the tectonic plates to move at speeds of 3 m/s, rather than 0.03m/year!

Unfortunately they're writing textbooks for adoption by the Texas School Board; along with a re-imagined and sanitized version of U.S. history that can only serve to confuse our understanding of who we are and ill-prepare us for the great task of living in harmony with other nations.

[astra]

Originally Posted by Sparrow

But different customs and traditions already co-exist happily within countries.

Yes, that is why BNP is gaining more and more votes in London area. Area where 45% of all ethnic minorities live and it is nearly one third (29%) of the population.
Different mentalities cannot co-exist with each other in daily life. People who claim otherwise are delusional.