"... and please switch off all electronic devices."

[kovidgoyal]

Originally Posted by cmdahler

But of course, if your cell phone causes your car's engine to stall, that's not such a big deal as a problem with an airplane a few hundred feet off the ground flying at 200 mph...

Really, what if I'm driving at 80mph on a busy freeway?

[Rich_D]

Originally Posted by kovidgoyal

Really, what if I'm driving at 80mph on a busy freeway?

An engine stall in a car wouldn't cause your vehicle to stop. You should be able to safely navigate to the side of the road.

[cmdahler]

Originally Posted by kovidgoyal

Really, what if I'm driving at 80mph on a busy freeway?

Uh, you put on your emergency blinkers, signal a lane change, and pull over to the shoulder. Do you think when your car's engine stalls that your brakes automatically go to full-on emergency stop mode?

[kovidgoyal]

That's assuming the person behind me is alert enough to notice the speed change in time. And once you have electronics being all pervasive in a car, engine stalls are far from the most critical failure.

For example, cars with electric motors are most probably going to have individual motors in each wheel. So a failure of one motor out of the four would cause your car to swerve and at high speeds probably topple.

[cmdahler]

Why would only having power to one wheel cause a car to swerve out of control, much less topple? Lots of cars have been designed for decades with powertrains that only applied power to one wheel out of all four, and I don't think any of those toppled as a result.

This is a silly argument. An engine stall hardly qualifies as a major emergency in a car; it's more of a major hassle.

[pshrynk]

Originally Posted by Rich_D

An engine stall in a car wouldn't cause your vehicle to stop. You should be able to safely navigate to the side of the road.

Yeah, but Toyota recently learned that their electronics aren't all that reliable...

I wonder if there is some cell-phone related buggery involved with all that stuff?

[DJHARKAVY]

Originally Posted by cmdahler

Right, because that show is the fount of all wisdom and knowledge.

No, but they are pretty good. And they look at both the theory and practical results.

Originally Posted by cmdahler

In your words, think about it. There's never been a reliably reproducible problem with an electronic device. Thus, the Mythbusters episode was just a complete waste of those guys' time. Anyone could have told them that just with a little research into the issue.

But that's the thing... If there were a reason why electronics should not be used on an airplane, it WOULD be reliable and reproducible.

Originally Posted by cmdahler

The problem is the random, un-reproducible problems that have occurred.

That can actually be attributed to cell phones? Please show data.

Originally Posted by cmdahler

Now, how much faith do you have in Mythbusters on your flight on a Cat-III autoland approach at 100 feet off the ground moving at 150+ mph?

I'll have to say a lot, because I don't know what you are talking about...

[HorridRedDog]

Originally Posted by aceflor

I agree to 120% to that. K for u Kevin. Really, it is a question of courtesy, politeness, education, name it how you like it, but that is the point for me.
....

Perhaps this comment belongs in "Unutterably Silly", but I have started looking down the list and voting for "politeness".

Some of you (the polite ones) on the list already have a vote of extra "KARMA" added.

The rest will get it later - you can only give out so much karma in a day it seems.

I'm only going so far down the list to the point when it occurred to me. So it's too late for karma hunters to pipe up.

P.S. - If you are so polite as to turn off your pacemaker - YOU'LL GET NO KARMA FROM ME. Especially if you sit next to me.

[aceflor]

Originally Posted by HorridRedDog

Perhaps this comment belongs in "Unutterably Silly", but I have started looking down the list and voting for "politeness".

Some of you (the polite ones) on the list already have a vote of extra "KARMA" added.

The rest will get it later - you can only give out so much karma in a day it seems.

I'm only going so far down the list to the point when it occurred to me. So it's too late for karma hunters to pipe up.

P.S. - If you are so polite as to turn off your pacemaker - YOU'LL GET NO KARMA FROM ME. Especially if you sit next to me.

so K for you too
Now this is the way I educate my kids : you'll only get the candy if you say please (and have brushed your teeth properly the last 7 days, but that's a whole different story ... and thread ).

[cmdahler]

Originally Posted by DJHARKAVY

But that's the thing... If there were a reason why electronics should not be used on an airplane, it WOULD be reliable and reproducible.

Ah, but you are not looking at the issue the way a safety-oriented regulatory agency approaches the problem. There have been incidents reported by reliable people (flight crew) that indicate some electrical problems on the airplane seemed to be attributable to a personal electronic device back in the cabin. The very fact that these incidents cannot be reproduced under testing conditions is cause for extreme concern: random events with un-reproducible results are the worst sort of headache. The safety-minded regulatory agency, i.e. FAA, decides to err on the side of caution and prohibit the devices' use during a critical phase of flight.

That can actually be attributed to cell phones? Please show data.

The potential problem is with any kind of radiating electrical device. If you're concerned about electrical devices' EMFs in general, then a device that is designed by its very nature to radiate would naturally be at the top of the list of concern.

I'll have to say a lot, because I don't know what you are talking about...

Certain types of approaches to landing are required to be conducted with the autopilot all the way to touchdown - the pilot cannot manually fly the airplane because the visibility is so poor that he cannot see out the windshield. Now, do you think that's a good time to test out something you saw on Mythbusters? Or do you think that, perhaps, since there has been the occasional random event, at least one in particular which involved an electronic device causing the autopilot to suddenly disconnect, this might be a better moment to err on the side of caution and turn the cell phone off?

[DawnFalcon]

Originally Posted by jbjb

What we have at the moment is a rule set by people who have expertise and have studied the problem

Right. And you know what the identified issue is? That the shielding systems on aircraft, which are important (indeed, critical) for protecting their electronics against thunderstorms, are not maintained or replaced nearly enough in current aviation maintenance schedules.

It's an important safety issue, and just incidentally it would also eliminate the issues with devices. A mobile phone in active use is VERY active in the EM spectrum, banning /calls/ might still be necessary during takeoff but just electrical devices from being on? Um...

(And you know that most pilot headsets have mobile phone adaptors, right? Really claiming pilots never make calls in the air? Ha!)

[DJHARKAVY]

Originally Posted by cmdahler

Ah, but you are not looking at the issue the way a safety-oriented regulatory agency approaches the problem. There have been incidents reported by reliable people (flight crew) that indicate some electrical problems on the airplane seemed to be attributable to a personal electronic device back in the cabin. The very fact that these incidents cannot be reproduced under testing conditions is cause for extreme concern: random events with un-reproducible results are the worst sort of headache. The safety-minded regulatory agency, i.e. FAA, decides to err on the side of caution and prohibit the devices' use during a critical phase of flight.

I'm not trying to look at it from the point of view of a bureaucrat.

I am looking at it from the question as to whether my cell phone, much less my ereader, needs to be turned off to protect us from crashing.

Originally Posted by cmdahler

Certain types of approaches to landing are required to be conducted with the autopilot all the way to touchdown - the pilot cannot manually fly the airplane because the visibility is so poor that he cannot see out the windshield. Now, do you think that's a good time to test out something you saw on Mythbusters? Or do you think that, perhaps, since there has been the occasional random event, at least one in particular which involved an electronic device causing the autopilot to suddenly disconnect, this might be a better moment to err on the side of caution and turn the cell phone off?

Given that there is no rational reason that the cell phone will affect anything, I have no problem with it being there.

I don't get paranoid about such things...

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by DJHARKAVY

I am looking at it from the question as to whether my cell phone, much less my ereader, needs to be turned off to protect us from crashing.

Your mobile phone, on its own, would certainly not cause any problem. 400 of them, all transmitting at maximum power, might, however, very well do so. Hence the regulation.

[cmdahler]

Originally Posted by DJHARKAVY

Given that there is no rational reason that the cell phone will affect anything, I have no problem with it being there.

I don't get paranoid about such things...

It all comes down to your view of acceptable risk. Given that there indeed have been incidents in which electronic devices caused issues with aircraft in the past, I for one am glad the rule is there to prevent cavalier attitudes from potentially causing a problem in the future.

(That, and I can't imagine how awful a flight would be sitting next to someone who was jabbering away on a cell phone the whole flight. The rule is worth it just to prevent that alone, as far as I'm concerned.)

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by cmdahler

(That, and I can't imagine how awful a flight would be sitting next to someone who was jabbering away on a cell phone the whole flight. The rule is worth it just to prevent that alone, as far as I'm concerned.)

It looks as if the days of aircraft being "phone-free zones" are numbered. The EU is now licensing technology to allow phone use in planes. Essentially the plane carries a base-station, and then re-transmits traffic from that to and from the ground.