Another Amazon/Mirasol Rumor

[LDBoblo]

Originally Posted by m-reader

You mean High Quality colour fidelity? I don't think that will ever be too great. Since brightness and contrast settings adjustments are out it will have to be one size fits all.

Yeah I was a bit intentionally vague on "quality" as different people have different expectations.

My personal hope for "quality" applies to resolution and contrast. By contrast, I'm referring to basic black point and white point, rather than gradient distinction. Reflective screens are a good bit behind in the latter, though hopefully EWD and EFD make some inroads.

[rlparker]

Not sure if this is the best place for this question, or if it's already been asked and answered elsewhere. If so, please pardon me.

As I understand it, these next generation display technologies will become available "soon": Mirasol, Sipix, PixelQI. (Are there others?)

Of these, which do you think is most worth waiting for--if what I want to do with the device is read novels 95% of the time. The other 5% is probably looking up stuff on Wikipedia. (and posting on MR )

[DawnFalcon]

Originally Posted by rlparker

Not sure if this is the best place for this question, or if it's already been asked and answered elsewhere. If so, please pardon me.

As I understand it, these next generation display technologies will become available "soon": Mirasol, Sipix, PixelQI. (Are there others?)

Liquavista.
Cholesteric LCD (as in the FLEPia, which is out in Japan and has been for a while, but it's expensive).

There are a number of other companies with in-house epaper technologies which they've demonstrated but don't seem to be bringing to market, but could quite rapidly... (Philips, Bridgestone, Xerox, Hitachi...)

[m-reader]

Originally Posted by DawnFalcon

There are a number of other companies with in-house epaper technologies which they've demonstrated but don't seem to be bringing to market, but could quite rapidly... (Philips, Bridgestone, Xerox, Hitachi...)

I find it hard to believe that these companies would be sitting on market-ready products, but not be selling them? Especially the likes of Philips who already have e-reader ventures (Irex).
Unless the production cost is prohibitive ...

[markbot]

Originally Posted by m-reader

I find it hard to believe that these companies would be sitting on market-ready products, but not be selling them? Especially the likes of Philips who already have e-reader ventures (Irex).
Unless the production cost is prohibitive ...

it's all about scale. eink has such a large advantage right now that it would be tough for a similar technology to get off the ground. the price is converging to marginal cost but they need to recoup the fixed investment, which will be tougher and tougher for the new players unless they have guaranteed scale.

mirasol and amazon is a partnership that makes a lot of sense. mirasol and liquavista look to have a bright future in portal displays that need long battery life.

[Daithi]

The only thing that concerns me about Mirasol is grayscale reproduction. I thought the colors looked pretty decent and I imagine they'll probably only get better. However, if their blacks and grays don't have enough range/contrast then it will hamper it's effectiveness as an ereader. In any event, I'm really looking forward to seeing production units this fall (hopefully-- but not counting chickens).

[SCION]

Originally Posted by dmaul1114

Honestly, my K1 will probably be my last e-ink device. I just don't read enough, or for long enough stretches, to really care about the benefits of e-ink. The cons out way the pros for me as the eye strain, battery life etc. just don't matter if you're just reading for 30-60 minutes here and there.

I'm with you on that front. My Sony will be last dedicated ebook reader. On the hunt for a versatile tablet now.

[dmaul1114]

Originally Posted by Daithi

The only thing that concerns me about Mirasol is grayscale reproduction. I thought the colors looked pretty decent and I imagine they'll probably only get better. However, if their blacks and grays don't have enough range/contrast then it will hamper it's effectiveness as an ereader. In any event, I'm really looking forward to seeing production units this fall (hopefully-- but not counting chickens).

Can Mirasol do a true white?

That would help a lot I'd think. An issue with e-ink is it's black on gray, so the contrast has to be really good to get good readability.

With a white background it wouldn't be so crucial I'd think. Or if you can invert it and have white text on black back ground. But of course I'd have to see it and read on it to know.

In any case, I'm interested in seeing what all these new screen techs can do. I think were still a handful of years away from having these new screens excel at reading and video etc. My next gadget will likely be something with an LCD screen with LED lighting like the iPad while I wait for the technology to mature on these new types of screens, since readability isn't my main concern.

[LDBoblo]

Originally Posted by dmaul1114

Can Mirasol do a true white?

That would help a lot I'd think. An issue with e-ink is it's black on gray, so the contrast has to be really good to get good readability.

With a white background it wouldn't be so crucial I'd think. Or if you can invert it and have white text on black back ground. But of course I'd have to see it and read on it to know.

In any case, I'm interested in seeing what all these new screen techs can do. I think were still a handful of years away from having these new screens excel at reading and video etc. My next gadget will likely be something with an LCD screen with LED lighting like the iPad while I wait for the technology to mature on these new types of screens, since readability isn't my main concern.

I don't think any reflective technology gives close to "true" white. EWD like Liquavista expects to get above 50% white reflectance (some claims state 60%), EPD like E-Ink stands around 40% (SiPix's flexible-backed MicroCup stuff mentioned 33% reflectance). Some technologies like electrofluidic and electrochromic are [at least theoretically] capable of above 80% (pretty white). For what it's worth, Mirasol's white papers suggest they are capable of around 50% white reflectance, compared to 60% for the Wall Street Journal (print version, obviously). Bear in mind that white reflectance can be measured in different ways, so the numbers are not always completely comparable.

White reflectance will certainly improve overall readability in diverse light conditions, but black reflectance is also important to consider. Without a solid black state, even good white reflectance will look washed out.

[SCION]

Originally Posted by ShellShock

Long battery life is the main incentive for me. I will not buy an iPad because I would have to recharge it too often. I don't think everyone is "comfortable" with having to charge devices every day or every few days--we just do not have any choice at the moment. Mirasol gives us that choice, and is readable outside too.

I mean "comfortable" in the sense that when you retire for the night, a wall outlet is conveniently available.

[Daithi]

Originally Posted by LDBoblo

I don't think any reflective technology gives close to "true" white. EWD like Liquavista expects to get above 50% white reflectance (some claims state 60%), EPD like E-Ink stands around 40% (SiPix's flexible-backed MicroCup stuff mentioned 33% reflectance). Some technologies like electrofluidic and electrochromic are [at least theoretically] capable of above 80% (pretty white). For what it's worth, Mirasol's white papers suggest they are capable of around 50% white reflectance, compared to 60% for the Wall Street Journal (print version, obviously). Bear in mind that white reflectance can be measured in different ways, so the numbers are not always completely comparable.

White reflectance will certainly improve overall readability in diverse light conditions, but black reflectance is also important to consider. Without a solid black state, even good white reflectance will look washed out.

I have to say, LDBoblo seems to know his stuff. I just read an article that said basically the exact same thing he just said.

The article mentioned that the Mirasol screen had a reflectivity of 50% with a contrast ratio of 8:1, whereas the Wall Street Journal's reflectivity was 60% with a contrast ratio of 4:1 (higher contrast ratios are better). The article also mentioned the technology used to create the mirasol screen (IMOD) has produced reflectivity greater than 60% with a 15:1 contrast ratio. BTW, a sheet of white paper measures between 70-90% reflectivity.

The article also explains why producing grays is difficult for IMOD devices-- basically a color is either on or off so you need to work at the subpixel level to get a color in between. There are two ways to get grays (spatial and temporal dithering) and one costs more while the other uses more power.

[dmaul1114]

Well that's disappointing to know re: the white levels, and drastically increases the chances I'll just buy an LCD tablet/slate when there's something similar to the iPad in size, price etc. with robust stylus mark up options.

[fugazied]

Originally Posted by Pardoz

Meh. Colour is a take-it-or-leave-it for me (leaning heavily to "leave it" if the trade-off is lower B&W fidelity), but touchscreen is a deal-killer.

I really don't care for touchscreen at all on a dedicated e-reader. On a device like the iPad which does a LOT more than just e-readering it is pretty handy though.

Color is a big deal for me though, the new Kindles need color so they can sell as a magazine reader, comic reader and full color newspaper reader. At the moment it's a bit limited. The problem for Amazon may be that large scale mirasol production could be months off, and Amazon need a response to iPad pretty soon or risk losing a lot of DX buyers at that $500 price point.

[dmaul1114]

Yeah same here. I find a touch screen useless on something I'm just reading novels on.

But for a tablet type device it's a must since my main desire is marking up documents with a stylus. Plus it's a better navigation option for web browsing and all the other stuff a tablet can do, which would suck with something like the Kindles wheel or 5 way nub on the KD2.

[LDBoblo]

Originally Posted by dmaul1114

Well that's disappointing to know re: the white levels, and drastically increases the chances I'll just buy an LCD tablet/slate when there's something similar to the iPad in size, price etc. with robust stylus mark up options.

In my opinion, for paper purposes, a 60% reflectivity would be quite good, and would be in the realm of good newsprint or average paperback. For books and papers and newspapers and such, it's just about right, assuming the black point can actually be black, and the resolution is high enough to minimize font smoothing's toll on the black. For magazines and the like, it will be a less-than-ideal solution, much as E-Ink is for paper books now.

I'm hoping to check out some of the latest high-density AMOLED phone displays myself soon, as they'll produce quite a deep black and some have very high resolutions (250+ppi). Too bad they're all quite small still.

Pixel Qi however might be a good solution, if ever a product comes to market. You'll get the readability in low light with the backlight, as well as the bright white that you can only easily get from transmissive displays, and you'll get the readability in more direct light without the backlight. They were saying they could get something in the realm of 200ppi out of the reflective mode, but I'm not sure how that plays out practically.

If I were more proactive, I guess I'd be calling up Pixel Qi's office and Mirasol's facility and seeing about tours/demos. Perhaps in coming weeks, after Chinese New Year is over and things are back to normal.