Hackers crack Amazon's Kindle DRM....

[Phogg]

Originally Posted by calvin-c

1st problem is, how do you define 'cracked'? Do you consider screen capture/OCR solutions as 'cracking' the DRM?

Does it result in a readable, duplicable copy?

If so, then yes. If not, then no.

I can't see any other assessment of the question as posited having much validity.

[martys5150]

This may be a silly idea but why doesnt a company create a program that reformats a file while keeping the DRM valid? This way the customers can reformat to there preferred format while the publishers keep the DRM valid.

[wallcraft]

Originally Posted by David Derrico

But, you're right for people who only see my stuff on Amazon and never visit my website. So, yeah, I'd prefer that Amazon took out the DRM. I don't think they'll listen to me though... (at least not until I start selling a LOT more books!).

Your ebooks are DRM-free on the Kindle, e.g. B001V9K6ZS has "Simultaneous Device Usage: Unlimited". However, so many ebooks on the Kindle have DRM that most people are not aware of the DRM-free ones.

[Bremen Cole]

Originally Posted by wallcraft

Your ebooks are DRM-free on the Kindle, e.g. B001V9K6ZS has "Simultaneous Device Usage: Unlimited". However, so many ebooks on the Kindle have DRM that most people are not aware of the DRM-free ones.

And I was one of them..... I had no idea that Amazon had any DRM free books.... interesting....

[Elfwreck]

Originally Posted by martys5150

This may be a silly idea but why doesnt a company create a program that reformats a file while keeping the DRM valid? This way the customers can reformat to there preferred format while the publishers keep the DRM valid.

Different ebook formats use different types of DRM. The DRM is established at the server end of things--it puts a code into the file that your computer (or ereader, or whatever) has to be authorized to read.

Adobe can't put Mobipocket's code-sequence into their ebooks; they don't have access to Mobi's DRM servers. (And won't, unless they pay for it. DRM isn't cheap.) So Sony can't give you a way to convert their Adobe Digital Editions epubs to Mobi PRC files that could be read on a different ebook reader.

A lot of DRM has less to do with preventing copying/piracy than with forcing you to continue to use their software, buy from their store, use their hardware to read ebooks, because it's too much hassle to convert them to a different format. B&N has no interest in telling you which of their books are eReader and which are ePub, because they only want you to read them on their software, which will display both. They don't want you buying B&N ebooks for your Sony; they want you to have to buy a Nook.

Aside from greed, there's substantial coding problems in allowing the format to be changed without removing DRM. That's technically impossible--instead, you have "create a new ebook with different DRM registered to the same person."

And anything that lets you remove the DRM lets you have a freely-sharable version of the ebook. Even if the program is supposed to immediately apply another form of DRM, that could be circumvented with creative coding.

[DawnFalcon]

Originally Posted by Bremen Cole

And I was one of them..... I had no idea that Amazon had any DRM free books.... interesting....

O'Reilly insisted, I believe.

[martys5150]

Originally Posted by Elfwreck

Different ebook formats use different types of DRM. The DRM is established at the server end of things--it puts a code into the file that your computer (or ereader, or whatever) has to be authorized to read.

Adobe can't put Mobipocket's code-sequence into their ebooks; they don't have access to Mobi's DRM servers. (And won't, unless they pay for it. DRM isn't cheap.) So Sony can't give you a way to convert their Adobe Digital Editions epubs to Mobi PRC files that could be read on a different ebook reader.

A lot of DRM has less to do with preventing copying/piracy than with forcing you to continue to use their software, buy from their store, use their hardware to read ebooks, because it's too much hassle to convert them to a different format. B&N has no interest in telling you which of their books are eReader and which are ePub, because they only want you to read them on their software, which will display both. They don't want you buying B&N ebooks for your Sony; they want you to have to buy a Nook.

Aside from greed, there's substantial coding problems in allowing the format to be changed without removing DRM. That's technically impossible--instead, you have "create a new ebook with different DRM registered to the same person."

And anything that lets you remove the DRM lets you have a freely-sharable version of the ebook. Even if the program is supposed to immediately apply another form of DRM, that could be circumvented with creative coding.

Thank you that was well written and very informative.

[DawnFalcon]

Originally Posted by Elfwreck

And anything that lets you remove the DRM lets you have a freely-sharable version of the ebook. Even if the program is supposed to immediately apply another form of DRM, that could be circumvented with creative coding.

Real used Helix for years to do precisely that, format-shifting DRM'ed music files.

So it's hardly impossible.

(It's no longer available since it became pointless with DRM on music being a dead letter)

[Format C:]

Originally Posted by Shaggy

I'm not sure what your point is then. "Hasn't been cracked" is not the same thing as "can not be cracked". I assume the Publishers definition of "perfect DRM" is "can not be cracked", which doesn't exist.

IMHO a more correct definition is "it's too difficult to crack, so that Mr. Average will prefer to buy several copies of the book rather than bother with scripts, keys and compressed files, and a one-click de-DRM solution is too difficult to hack together..."

[EowynCarter]

Originally Posted by DawnFalcon

O'Reilly insisted, I believe.

I like o'reilly.
Other publishers needs to take them as an exemple. Buy the book, get all the availible e-format, drm-free.
Don't that make sense ?

[Shaggy]

Originally Posted by Elfwreck

A lot of DRM has less to do with preventing copying/piracy than with forcing you to continue to use their software, buy from their store, use their hardware to read ebooks, because it's too much hassle to convert them to a different format.

Yep. Also, eliminating the second hand market was a nice benefit. As you say, the real purpose of DRM is to remove fair use and first sale rights, not prevent copyright infringement (which it is incapable of). "Piracy" is just the red herring that they use in order to sucker the public into accepting it.

[Shaggy]

Originally Posted by Format C:

IMHO a more correct definition is "it's too difficult to crack, so that Mr. Average will prefer to buy several copies of the book rather than bother with scripts, keys and compressed files, and a one-click de-DRM solution is too difficult to hack together..."

Mr. Average doesn't have to bother with it. It only takes one person to "crack" the DRM, and then unprotected copies will be easily available. Mr. Average doesn't need to de-DRM his own books, that's what Mr. Hacker is for.

[calvin-c]

Originally Posted by Shaggy

Mr. Average doesn't have to bother with it. It only takes one person to "crack" the DRM, and then unprotected copies will be easily available. Mr. Average doesn't need to de-DRM his own books, that's what Mr. Hacker is for.

Although I'm perfectly willing to believe that Mr. Average is lazy & careless, I do believe that (s)he's reasonably ethical. Distributing de-DRM tools is, IMO, ethical-but distributing the de-DRM'd books isn't. So, in your scenario, you end up with an ethical person supporting an unethical one.

This is what very often happens, the question then is whether or not the ethical person can *trust* the unethical one. I'm reminded of a poker adage-if you think you need to watch so you can catch your opponent cheating, then you shouldn't be in that game.

Although you need to extend trust whenever you take part in a transaction with someone new, you don't always need to do it blindly. If the person is unethical, then IMO you can't trust them. Period.

[Shaggy]

Originally Posted by calvin-c

Although I'm perfectly willing to believe that Mr. Average is lazy & careless, I do believe that (s)he's reasonably ethical. Distributing de-DRM tools is, IMO, ethical-but distributing the de-DRM'd books isn't. So, in your scenario, you end up with an ethical person supporting an unethical one.

So DRM only really impacts people who wouldn't pirate anyway.

[calvin-c]

Originally Posted by DawnFalcon

Real used Helix for years to do precisely that, format-shifting DRM'ed music files.

So it's hardly impossible.

(It's no longer available since it became pointless with DRM on music being a dead letter)

I've never been that interested in music so don't know what was done with DRM on it-but it sounds, from this, Real was stripping the DRM, converting the format, and then re-applying the DRM, which implies that the distributor had control of the DRM. That's not, as I understand it, the case with ebooks.

You know, I started writing that it's just a contract thing-but when I tried describing it I realized that I don't really know enough about how ebook distribution is handled. Does the publisher run their own content servers? If so, then the seller passes the buyer's DRM key to the publisher, who then applies the DRM to the book & delivers it to the buyer.

Or does the publisher provide a non-DRM book to the seller, under contract that it will only be delivered after DRM is applied? Or is it maybe more complicated? Technically, I think it would be possible for the publisher to apply one form of DRM, with a key from the seller, and the seller to embed the book in a 'wrapper' that contained that key, with the wrapper then being DRM'd with a key from the buyer. But that doesn't seem to be what's happening, at least in most cases.

So I suspect it's either one of the first two scenarios (DRM is applied by either the publisher or the seller) or something I haven't yet thought of.

If it's either one of the first two scenarios then there's no technical problem with making a book available in multiple formats-it simply requires multiple contracts. Whether or not that's expensive depends on how the DRM is licensed. If it's licensed on a per-copy basis (the reasonable way for the publisher to license it, IMO) then it would be little more expensive to provide multiple forms of DRM than a single form. OTOH if it's licensed on a 'site' basis (which is probably how the DRM providers want to license it-Microsoft made a fortune on that ripoff strategy before it was ruled illegal) then I can see where it would be much cheaper to provide a single form of DRM-take it or leave it.