Hackers crack Amazon's Kindle DRM....

[Shaggy]

Originally Posted by kennyc

That wasn't the point. It was about perfect DRM and I said Topaz hasn't been cracked, maybe it IS the perfect DRM.

I'm not sure what your point is then. "Hasn't been cracked" is not the same thing as "can not be cracked". I assume the Publishers definition of "perfect DRM" is "can not be cracked", which doesn't exist.

[calvin-c]

1st problem is, how do you define 'cracked'? Do you consider screen capture/OCR solutions as 'cracking' the DRM? Personally, I don't-but it's certainly the most obvious reason why there can't be perfect DRM.

Other than that, I'm not sure. I've taken a 'crack' at the higher math used to determine whether or not an encryption algorithm is uncrackable, but I haven't been able to crack the problem myself. So as far as I'm concerned, until a given DRM actually is cracked, both possibilities exist: that it can be cracked & that it can't be cracked.

As an article of faith, I agree with you, Shaggy. But as a matter of logic I have to agree with Kenny. Until a DRM actually is cracked, there's a possibility that it actually is perfect (i.e. uncrackable).

I tend to go back & forth between faith & logic. On even days I'm guided by faith, on odd days by logic. Since there's more odd than even days in the year (not even counting the days when *I'm* odd) I guess I lean more towards logic than faith. But not by very much.

[kennyc]

Originally Posted by calvin-c

....
I tend to go back & forth between faith & logic. On even days I'm guided by faith, on odd days by logic. Since there's more odd than even days in the year (not even counting the days when *I'm* odd) I guess I lean more towards logic than faith. But not by very much.

I resemble that!

[Shaggy]

Originally Posted by calvin-c

Other than that, I'm not sure. I've taken a 'crack' at the higher math used to determine whether or not an encryption algorithm is uncrackable, but I haven't been able to crack the problem myself. So as far as I'm concerned, until a given DRM actually is cracked, both possibilities exist: that it can be cracked & that it can't be cracked.

There is no such thing as a DRM that can not be cracked. It doesn't matter how strong the encryption algorithm is, in order for the customer to use the content you have to provide the keys in some form or another. Eventually, somebody will figure out a way of using the key in an unintended way, which is usually how these things are "cracked" (aka circumvented). Most of them don't break the algorithm, they figure out how to unlock the content using the DRM and then do something with it that they're not supposed to. You can't give them the key to use the content and keep the content away from them at the same time.

The easiest way to think of DRM is the locked door analogy. You can come up with the biggest/strongest door lock in the world, but you always have to give the home owner a copy of the key. DRM can never prevent the home owner from breaking in to their own house.

The only thing that it comes down to is having someone with the technical skills and enough motivation to figure out how to use the key to get the content out. There's nothing DRM can do to make that impossible.

The only way to have unbeatable DRM is to make it so that nobody can access the content, including the customer. There wouldn't be much point to that though.

[kennyc]

We'll let's just take this to the ultimate conclusion then.

Originally Posted by Shaggy

..

The only way to have unbeatable DRM is to make it so that nobody can access the content, including the customer. There wouldn't be much point to that though.

Even that can be beaten given infinite time to do it.

So there is no such thing as unbeatable DRM. Like everything else it's a
matter of time and motivation.

I think we're wasting our time here, let's get crackin'!

[=X=]

Originally Posted by Shaggy

The only way to have unbeatable DRM is to make it so that nobody can access the content, including the customer. There wouldn't be much point to that though.

Yeah I use to work with a guy that use to say the best file compression algorithm is to delete the file. I think your making the same point.

=X=

[calvin-c]

Originally Posted by Shaggy

There is no such thing as a DRM that can not be cracked. It doesn't matter how strong the encryption algorithm is, in order for the customer to use the content you have to provide the keys in some form or another. Eventually, somebody will figure out a way of using the key in an unintended way, which is usually how these things are "cracked" (aka circumvented). Most of them don't break the algorithm, they figure out how to unlock the content using the DRM and then do something with it that they're not supposed to. You can't give them the key to use the content and keep the content away from them at the same time.

The easiest way to think of DRM is the locked door analogy. You can come up with the biggest/strongest door lock in the world, but you always have to give the home owner a copy of the key. DRM can never prevent the home owner from breaking in to their own house.

The only thing that it comes down to is having someone with the technical skills and enough motivation to figure out how to use the key to get the content out. There's nothing DRM can do to make that impossible.

The only way to have unbeatable DRM is to make it so that nobody can access the content, including the customer. There wouldn't be much point to that though.

That's why I started my reply by saying we need to define 'cracking'. IMO, circumvention is not the same as cracking. If your definition of cracking includes circumvention, then I'll agree with you-all DRM that doesn't make an ebook unusable can be circumvented. Hell, if necessary I can display the ebook on the screen while I retype it manually. How's any DRM going to prevent that? So if that's your point, then you're right-there's no such thing as 'perfect' DRM.

[BeccaAnn]

Originally Posted by edembowski

Why bother cracking Topaz? There are plenty of other book sellers who either sell DRM-free books (Baen for example) or sell books that can easily be converted (anyone selling ePub). Breaking Topaz may be interesting, but it's really of limited use.

- Ed

I can think of 6 books off the top of my head that are only available in topaz format, five of which are a mystery series that I really enjoy, hope one day to be able to read on a Reader. I think breaking the DRM on topaz is needed and hopefully, will soon be broken.

[Shaggy]

Originally Posted by calvin-c

That's why I started my reply by saying we need to define 'cracking'. IMO, circumvention is not the same as cracking. If your definition of cracking includes circumvention, then I'll agree with you-all DRM that doesn't make an ebook unusable can be circumvented. Hell, if necessary I can display the ebook on the screen while I retype it manually. How's any DRM going to prevent that? So if that's your point, then you're right-there's no such thing as 'perfect' DRM.

Technically, yes, breaking the encryption algorithm is not the same thing as circumventing it. In reality though, the results are the same. Most people use the term "cracking" when referring to DRM schemes in the sense that the DRM has been defeated and the content retrieved. Whether that means breaking/circumventing/etc doesn't matter.

What makes DRM fundamentally flawed is that you don't have to actually break the encryption algorithm in order to remove the DRM. There's nothing they can do to change that.

I don't really consider manual methods (retyping, etc) to be the same thing, but those are valid as well. Most of the time they're not necessary. Manual methods are just a temporary solution until someone figures out a better way of circumventing it.

[phenomshel]

Originally Posted by Elfwreck

Now that Topaz is available on the PC, can it be screencapped and OCR'd? (Which is a slow, complicated way of breaking DRM, but is sometimes used on some of the server-validated PDFs that only work with an active internet connection.)

Yes, it can.. I've tried it, and slow and complicated is an understatement. But it is possible.

[phenomshel]

Originally Posted by BeccaAnn

I can think of 6 books off the top of my head that are only available in topaz format, five of which are a mystery series that I really enjoy, hope one day to be able to read on a Reader. I think breaking the DRM on topaz is needed and hopefully, will soon be broken.

I can think of at least nine books, same way,and I bet we're not thinking of the same titles. Kindle for PC made those titles at least available to me, (I don't own a Kindle or iPod or iPhone), which I am very happy about, but what if I'd eventually like to read them on something besides my netbook or desktop?

[Blue Tyson]

Originally Posted by edembowski

How many books are available as Topaz only? I'm not being facetious, I just haven't seen any. I'm not much of an Amazon customer.

I'm totally with you as to why lrx died off, and why Sony has pushed so hard for ePub. I'd really like to see the same happen for all DRM'd media, but having it in a convertable format is the next best thing.

- Ed

All Pyr's so far it looks like - so they have an hundred odd titles that should be out eventually.

[David Derrico]

Originally Posted by calvin-c

It's actually worse than that-there are undoubtedly some people who would like to buy your book, but it's not available in a format supported by their device. DRM prevents them from converting the format (assuming 'perfect' DRM, which luckily doesn't exist) so DRM has actually *cost* you customers.

True. But, for the record, I make my book available on my own website in multiple formats with no DRM. If there's a format I missed that someone wants, I'll go figure out how to convert it for them.

But, you're right for people who only see my stuff on Amazon and never visit my website. So, yeah, I'd prefer that Amazon took out the DRM. I don't think they'll listen to me though... (at least not until I start selling a LOT more books!).

[kennyc]

Originally Posted by David Derrico

... (at least not until I start selling a LOT more books!).

and then you'll probably change your mind.

[Nathan Campos]

I don't download illegal stuff, but crack things is just need time, as I'm graduated in Reverse Engineering I understand this very nice.

But they have taken too much time to do this, as I was thinking that they will sucessfully done this in 2 days.