The death of print ... (or, does DRM drive you to piracy?)

[DawnFalcon]

Originally Posted by PKFFW

Actually that would depend entirely upon what is in the contract and whether what is in the contract was considered to be legal.

Sure, if there us absolutely no clause about effort or sales... that'd differ from contracts I've seen (I was pretty close to getting a short story in a Baen anthology at one point, but it (the anthology) was cancelled ><)

But of course the reasons don't matter to the end result. If you would prefer to buy the authors books from a second hand shop that is entirely up to you and is a fair and resonable way of avoiding purchasing ebooks with DRM.

Well yes. But a pet peeve is authors whinging about stuff then not doing something about it.

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by Ferns

In my opinion DRM isn't the only thing that would drive people to piracy in the UK anyway. Waterstones is probably our best known chain of book stores, and browsing their ebook offerings, it struck me that the prices they ask, in many cases, aren't that much cheaper than their paperback prices. Given the massive reduction in overheads when selling ebooks, it really irritates me me that rather than make a fair profit, companies like that appear to want to rip every last penny they can from customers.

It's not Waterstones who set the prices, it's the publisher.

[rhadin]

Originally Posted by calvin-c

On the part of the buyer, it's possibly providing false information-but in most jurisdictions I'm familiar with that's only a crime when it's provided to authorities (and even then, often only in a sworn statement).

The closest crime I can think of is fraud-and since the buyer is paying for the product I'm not sure that fraud would fit either. (I'm sure the buyer could be charged with fraud, I'm just not sure (s)he would be convicted.)

The buyer of a book -- at least in the United States -- has no obligation to report correct identifying geographic information to a bookseller unless the buyer is trying to defraud to seller. If the buyer pays for the item, then giving false geographic information to the seller is not actionable. There is no contract between the buyer and seller.

The geographic restrictions are bargained for clauses in contracts between the author and publisher and then between the publisher and the wholesaler, and, finally, between the wholesaler and the retailer -- but not between anyone and the consumer-buyer. The retailer is obligated to reasonably enforce geographic restrictions. The consumer who gives false geographical information but actaully pays for book cannot be charged with fraud; it is not a crime unless the false information is given to a law enforcement officer in an attempt to disrupt an investigation.

At least not yet, Americans do not have to carry and display on demand to whoever asks official identification papers or a passport.

[Blue Tyson]

"Print is dead."

-- Egon Spengler, 1984.

[rhadin]

Originally Posted by sianon

It could possibly be construed as smuggling given you are purchasing a product that is not legally available in your country of residence. Although smuggling was used historically as a means to deprive the government of it's taxes and thus the high penalties.

No, it's not smuggling in the United States, and probably not in most countries. In the U.S., there is no federal LAW that provides geographical restrictions on book distribution; there are only contractual agreements that can be enforced by a court in an action between the contracting parties for breach of a contract.

[rhadin]

Originally Posted by Ralph Sir Edward

Right as usual, but I was trying to make a point about long term durability/availability. Consider how much early history of videogames is being lost due to DRM. What little that is surviving is due to "pirates".

Ralph, in a very broad, general sense you are right, but . . . (ain't there always a but ) the games are being lost because they were available only in the one form. Few books are being lost to posterity because they are only available in the Kindle Topaz format. With rare exception, every book that is available as a DRMed ebook is available in some other form, perhaps nonDRM audio or p.

[rhadin]

Originally Posted by Sonist

You mean, if you were looking to buy Harry Potter as an ebook on the web, but then discovered, that it is simply not available for sale, you wouldn't be tempted to take a peek at one of the myriad "unofficial" copies, which pop up during the search... ? If so, for real, then

Thanks for the hats off . If i can't find what I want as a legal ebook, I either buy the p version or do not buy at all. I have never bought (knowingly) a pirate version of a book, CD, or video. if what I want isn't available as I want it, I simply move on. There is no book, CD, or video that I cannot live my life without.

My life isn't so shallow nor my interests so narrow that I will just die if I cannot have Harry Potter (or any other book) as a DRM-free ebook yesterday, today, or tomorrow.

[DawnFalcon]

Originally Posted by rhadin

there are only contractual agreements that can be enforced by a court in an action between the contracting parties for breach of a contract.

You are, if you're paying with a card, entering a contract in which you warrant that you have the full legal right to purchase the item you're buying. If you're evading a geographical restriction, you do not and you are hence breaking the law when you make that purchase.

Also, breaking a geographical restriction to purchase means you have an unauthorised copy under copyright law, as surely as if you'd downloaded it from the darknet. Paying cash doesn't actually come into the law on this, and indeed in some countries it makes it worse (or can lead to liability for the intermediate seller) - there is no "good faith" defence.

edit:

******, you are a ***** This is not an unfounded opinion, it is a legal opinion from a lawyer. Deal with it.

[Greg Anos]

Originally Posted by rhadin

Ralph, in a very broad, general sense you are right, but . . . (ain't there always a but ) the games are being lost because they were available only in the one form. Few books are being lost to posterity because they are only available in the Kindle Topaz format. With rare exception, every book that is available as a DRMed ebook is available in some other form, perhaps nonDRM audio or p.

May I respectfully disagree, Rhadin? Look at the creation and release of GPL/public domain emulators for so many early machines. And where the emulators are, the software can be run. Getting it converted (to the layout of the new machine) may be difficult, but once done, it can be run for as long as the emulators can be run. And yes, you can run an emulator inside an emulator.....

But DRM and the laws involved with DRM prevent you from legally preserving these games.

Let me give you an example. How many of you have heard of a game called M.U.L.E. ? It was one of the first 4 games released (in a block) by EA. It won game of the year by various publications in 1984. It was written for the Atari 800 and later ported to the Commodore 64. it was never ported to any other machine. It's still quite playable today. If you have a working Atari 800 and a working 5 1/4 floppy with the Atari specific controller mods. 50 Years from now it will be just a name in a magazine and old game playing manual. But if you have an Atari 800 emulator, there are "darknet" copies stripped of their DRM, that will run on the emulator with no problems (so I've heard). The only reason it may exist in 50 years is due to those 1. public spirited emulator writers, and 2. those horrible thieves who broke the DRM while the equipment still existed to save the programs.

[rhadin]

Originally Posted by Ralph Sir Edward

May I respectfully disagree, Rhadin?

Of course, Ralph, you can disagree . I think where we are parting ways is the form when the original, initial work was/is created. Video games were not originally created in a form readily capable of copying to another form; that is, a game was, for example, originally coded to be played on the Atari and then perhaps on the TI64, etc. They were never originally created as nonDRMed open source. Consequently, when the hardware disappeared the games became unusable without cracking and perhaps recoding.

Books, however, for the most part start life differently -- at least so far in the ebook evolution. Books begin life in a form that is not DRMed, usually print or nonDRM e. So they exist "free" and available for use on any device without "cracking" and thus archivable. It is only when the book is converted from its original "free" form to some other form that it becomes tied to a specific piece of hardware.

For example, Stephen King's newest novel Under the Dome exists first as a pbook and an efile. The efile is then converted to another format, Topaz, which is locked and tied to the Kindle. Should the Kindle disappear tomorrow, the Topaz form will be unusable without cracking, but the p form and the Nook and Sony versions will still be usable and archivable. Should the Nook and Sony hardware disappear, there will still be the underlying ebook layer available without cracking as well as the p version.

And just as Jules Verne's Twenty Thousand Leagues Under the Sea ultimately fell out of copyright and was digitized, so the same will happen to Under the Dome. Consequently, I do not see the same problem with books as exists with computer games.

Also think of it this way: A computer game relies on the fact that there is already hardware available on which it can run, no computer game is created in the hopes that in 2 years hardware will come into existence that will be capable of running it. In contrast, a book comes into existence without regard to whether or not in 2 years there will be a new hardware system on which it can be displayed because the life of the book isn't tied to hardware.

[delphidb96]

Originally Posted by Ferns

In my opinion DRM isn't the only thing that would drive people to piracy in the UK anyway. Waterstones is probably our best known chain of book stores, and browsing their ebook offerings, it struck me that the prices they ask, in many cases, aren't that much cheaper than their paperback prices. Given the massive reduction in overheads when selling ebooks, it really irritates me me that rather than make a fair profit, companies like that appear to want to rip every last penny they can from customers.

I have no problem with charging paperback prices for ebooks. Where I have a problem is keeping the same royalty percentages to authors for ebooks that they pay for paperbacks. I believe authors should get a larger share of ebook revenues.

Derek

[Shaggy]

Originally Posted by DawnFalcon

You are, if you're paying with a card, entering a contract in which you warrant that you have the full legal right to purchase the item you're buying.

Really? What contract is that?

[DawnFalcon]

I'd advise you to read your card's agreement.

[DawnFalcon]

Originally Posted by rhadin

Also think of it this way: A computer game relies on the fact that there is already hardware available on which it can run, no computer game is created in the hopes that in 2 years hardware will come into existence that will be capable of running it.

When you're working on console games pre-launch, you are working with simulators and emulators and pre-release hardware. And bluntly you are generally having to work on the assumption that the hardware won't change (and it will, sigh). That's precisely what you are doing in games at the transition between console generations, and is one of the reasons such transitions are so rough.

So yes, computer games are developed on that basis.