Microsoft and the Xbox

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by DawnFalcon

And how do you think that helps the industry?

The fact that games can be re-sold at decent 2nd-hand prices certainly helps to keep open local game shops, who can't afford to compete with the likes of Amazon on selling new titles, but people buy them there because they know that they can get a reasonable trade-in price when they've finished with them.

[DawnFalcon]

Local game shops? A rare breed indeed, and the major resellers of second hand games are shop chains like GAME. Who push second hand game sales aggressively.

[Moejoe]

Originally Posted by DawnFalcon

Moejoe - I think you misunderstand the current hack. Unless you have a previous keyvault dump via Xell, there's nothing which can be done, and most people won't have done that (I don't even have a working 360, I'd add, I just subscribe to "know thy enemy").

Probably, but then again most of the people I know who have a modded XBOX don't use LIVE anyway. The hack and the ban mean nothing to them as long as they can get latest release games for a couple of quid

[DawnFalcon]

End of the day I'm a pragmatist and I realise we won't touch the hardcore. But the numbers totally unwilling to pay are pretty small.

[CleverClothe]

Originally Posted by DawnFalcon

And how do you think that helps the industry?

By not pissing off people that actually pay for games? By not pissing off the 95%+ of gamers that don't cheat?

I think it is clear that DawnFalcon is one of those that were banned.

[dmaul1114]

Originally Posted by DawnFalcon

End of the day I'm a pragmatist and I realise we won't touch the hardcore. But the numbers totally unwilling to pay are pretty small.

Total numbers of people who own 360? Agreed.

Total number of people who modded their 360s? Can't agree, most of those (especially outside of Australia) who installed mod chips, firmware etc. did so to play pirated games as that's the main incentive outside of region lock breaking--which isn't much needed outside of Australia since there aren't many Japan exclusive games to import like there are on Sony and Nintendo's consoles. Otherwise, the US and Europe get the same games around the same time.

[PKFFW]

Originally Posted by DawnFalcon

Again, what happens when you get banned is well documented. So...

They "could" purchase games. But they won't. And writing them off as customers simply because they've verifyably played one pirates game? Is a bluntly stupid thing to do... the number of hardcore pirates is small. Not banning the hardware (but nuking the account, with their achievements and gamerscore, which matters more to most of them!) for good means there's a chance you'll regain them as customers. This is.. not very advanced psychology.

Yes and the 99% of people who mod their Xbox always intended to go buy legitimate games didn't they? All, or even a significant proportion of them, would get rid of their mods and come rushing back to buy legitimate games if only they could!! Come on, get real. They don't intend to pay for legitimate games, that's why they mod the Xbox in the first place. You keep talking about the "pragmatists" view but totally ignore this fact.

Originally Posted by DawnFalcon

I'm also not going to argue UK advertising law with you either, two law students agree with me that there's a clear expectation issue regarding the adverts. And if there is an expectation, then that does indeed tie Microsoft's hands and negate large portions of their terms and conditions.

Well stop the press! Two law students agree with you.

False advertising may indeed get MS a big fine. I can guarantee you it will not confer the right to access Xbox live without abiding by the terms and conditions upon every purchaser of an Xbox.

Originally Posted by DawnFalcon

I'm quite willing to stand by my beliefs with a heck of a lot more just than my opinion, I'm interested in taking part in (and am trying to) a startup based on them. If we can get funding, we'll be doing some...interesting...games.

Great and I wish you all the best luck in the world with the endeavour.

Cheers,
PKFFW

[PKFFW]

Originally Posted by DawnFalcon

Yes. What does that have to do with the pragmatic view that writing customers off entirely after they've used a modified drive firmware just dosn't make sense for revenue?

Lets see now.......

Approximately 95-99% of people who mod their Xbox do so in order to play pirated software or cheat.

% of total Xbox owners who mod their Xbox would be what? I'm taking a total guess here........10-15% at most and probably less?

Therefore % of total Xbox owners who don't mod their Xbox would be approximately 85-90%.

So............

Option 1:
Do whatever you can to encourage the 10-15% who have no intention of buying legitimate games anyway to change their minds whilst at the same time pissing off and possibly driving away the 85-90% who do buy legitimate games.

Option 2:
Get rid of the 10-15% who have no intention of purchasing legitimate games whilst at the same time keeping the 85-90% who do purchase legitimate games happy.

Now.......which might affect the bottom line revenue more? Pissing off your happy, legitimate customers or pissing off your "customers" who do not intend to purchase your product anyway?

Cheers,
PKFFW

[PKFFW]

Originally Posted by DawnFalcon

And how do you think that helps the industry?

Why does it have to help the industry at all?

As many have vehemently pointed out with regards to books and the publishing industry..........if the industry can't adapt then let the leeches die!

Originally Posted by DawnFalcon

I'm interested in legal ways of undercutting the second hand games industry, like a proper returns mechanism, incidentally. (For a console, a return would de-authorise the game of you've copied it to the hard disk and remove it from your achievements/gamerscore, for instance)

Now you are sounding like the big bad publishing industry. How dare you try to tell someone they can't sell their game second hand whilst still keeping a copy on their hard drive?!?!!?(tongue firmly in cheek there btw)

Cheers,
PKFFW

[PKFFW]

Originally Posted by Moejoe

Probably, but then again most of the people I know who have a modded XBOX don't use LIVE anyway. The hack and the ban mean nothing to them as long as they can get latest release games for a couple of quid

Exactly right!

So why try to keep people like that happy whilst at the same time pissing off everyone else?

Cheers,
PKFFW

[DawnFalcon]

Originally Posted by CleverClothe

By not pissing off people that actually pay for games? By not pissing off the 95%+ of gamers that don't cheat?

I think it is clear that DawnFalcon is one of those that were banned.

...

No, let me be very very clear: I work in the games industry. I do not own a working 360*. Take your slander and shove it where the sun dosn't shine. I'd advise you not to repeat it.


PKFFW - So then anyone who mods a console should automatically be written off, quite probably forever, as a revenue stream for the games industry? Ask the music industry how well that one's working out for them, eh?

I am not suggesting doing nothing, I am suggesting that Microsoft are doing the *wrong* thing. Modded console? Oops, there goes your account (and associated purchased content, achievements and gamerscore). New account? Mod check...if the console's been unmodded, welcome back.

Also, I think you misunderstand how contract law in the UK works. If there was action taken against Microsoft for false advertising and breach of contract by a user, and they won? Yes, the liscence terms would be tossed.


dmaul1114 - Assuming that 80% of those million they just banned were legitimate, which is reasonable, then of the 33 million sold, ~24 million in active use (low, but reasonable given how unreliable the hardware is), then Microsoft just banned about 3% of their total current 360 userbase.

Plus roughly the same again banned in the past (per announcements). That is not rare or uncommon, it's only the announced ones, it's only the ones they're caught, and it's actually ignoring the fact that there are only about 15 million active live accounts...which makes the percentage even higher!

You're writing off a massive amount of active gamers, many for good. This simply screws the industry over, in even the medium term.

(*I have the corpses of 4 in a cupboard. One day I'm going to salvage one for a linux box...)

[DawnFalcon]

Originally Posted by PKFFW

Now you are sounding like the big bad publishing industry. How dare you try to tell someone they can't sell their game second hand whilst still keeping a copy on their hard drive?!?!!?(tongue firmly in cheek there btw)

Quite. I'm very much about doing what you can while respecting user's rights, and allowing returns would make a nice inroad on the second hand market's supply of games, without infringing on anyone's rights.

"Let the industry die" is all very well when the industry isn't actively trying to work in new ways of thinking. An awful lot of people in the games industry are, unlike music and books.

Under 1% of consumers, per surveys and data I've seen which backs them up, never buy legitimate content. The main reasons for not buying legitimate content relate to being treated like thieves by the content producers, even when they sometimes are. Being pragmatic...well, treating them like thieves remains a bad idea. This dosn't mean doing nothing, it means being cautious with the stick and looking at carrots.

More, a lot of the hardcore pirates still serve the industry in that they're hardcore gamers and word of mouth and trickle down sales are important. Same as other media.

[PKFFW]

Originally Posted by DawnFalcon

PKFFW - So then anyone who mods a console should automatically be written off, quite probably forever, as a revenue stream for the games industry? Ask the music industry how well that one's working out for them, eh?

Should everyone single one automatically be written off? No. But you can never satisfy all of the people all of the time. The overwhelming majority of people who mod their Xbox do so for one reason only, to buy pirated software. They do not intend to ever buy legitimate software and trying to pander to them at the expense of those who do buy legitimate software seems silly to me. Sure, some genuine people who mod their Xbox for purely noble and legitimate reasons will be caught up in the banning and will very likely be pissed off and may never buy a legitimate game again. That is unfortunate but really can't be helped because we do not live in a perfect world.

As for how it is working out for the music industry........the situations may be similar but they are not the same. As you have pointed out the % of people unwilling to pay for games is very small whereas the % of people unwilling to pay for music is comparatively quite high. So of course you need to pander to them in order to try to get them to pay. Further, as you pointed out, reducing the cost of games to a point where this small % would be willing to pay is entirely impracticable. So again, why try pandering to them?

Originally Posted by DwanFalcon

I am not suggesting doing nothing, I am suggesting that Microsoft are doing the *wrong* thing. Modded console? Oops, there goes your account (and associated purchased content, achievements and gamerscore). New account? Mod check...if the console's been unmodded, welcome back.

That's another suggestion.

Which method is "right" and which is "wrong" is entirely a matter of opinion though.

Originally Posted by DawnFalcon

Also, I think you misunderstand how contract law in the UK works. If there was action taken against Microsoft for false advertising and breach of contract by a user, and they won? Yes, the liscence terms would be tossed.

Firstly, my original statement was that regardless of the advertising, purchase of the Xbox does not bestow any right to access the Xbox live service. You claimed this was not so.

Now, regardless of the false advertising(which in itself is entirely up for debate as MS has not been found guilty of such), purchase of the Xbox simply does not bestow the right to access Xbox live. Especially if one does not abide by the terms and conditions. IF MS were found guilty of false advertising I guarantee you the worst that would happen would be that MS would be hit with a fine. Perhaps some of the terms and conditions would be changed. In the end though, the courts would not rule that all people who have purchased an Xbox 360 now have the right to access Xbox live regardless of any fee or terms and conditions. That is simply the "pragmatic" or realistic view.

Further, I truly find it very hard to believe that MS has used such different adds in the UK to the ones they use in Australia. Not a single person I have ever met here in Australia believes that buying an Xbox automatically, free of charge and without terms and conditions attached, bestows the right to access Xbox live. So maybe MS decided to just be a whole lot more honest with the Australian public but I don't really believe that.

Cheers,
PKFFW

[PKFFW]

Originally Posted by DawnFalcon

Quite. I'm very much about doing what you can while respecting user's rights, and allowing returns would make a nice inroad on the second hand market's supply of games, without infringing on anyone's rights.

And why is there any need to make any inroads into the second hand games market? Wouldn't doing so be detrimental to the second hand games industry? Why should we hold up and improve your industry at the expense of another industry?

Originally Posted by DawnFalcon

"Let the industry die" is all very well when the industry isn't actively trying to work in new ways of thinking. An awful lot of people in the games industry are, unlike music and books.

Many in the book industry are trying to work in new business practices. What's good for the goose is good for the gander as they say. IF the book and music industries should be allowed to die for their parasitic business practices then why not the games industry?

Methinks it is a case of you don't want your industry to die so the rules of the game should be different??

Originally Posted by DawnFalcon

Under 1% of consumers, per surveys and data I've seen which backs them up, never buy legitimate content. The main reasons for not buying legitimate content relate to being treated like thieves by the content producers, even when they sometimes are. Being pragmatic...well, treating them like thieves remains a bad idea. This dosn't mean doing nothing, it means being cautious with the stick and looking at carrots.

No, the reason claimed for not buying legitimate content is because of being treated like a criminal. The actual reason is because they want free stuff.

And isn't canceling accounts and wiping scores treating them like thieves? Isn't it saying they have done something wrong and are being punished for it? Isn't that going to push more of these people who desperately want to buy legitimate software if only given the chance away? Isn't that just another form of stick?

Originally Posted by DawnFalcon

More, a lot of the hardcore pirates still serve the industry in that they're hardcore gamers and word of mouth and trickle down sales are important. Same as other media.

Do you really think these hardcore gamers are going to suddenly stop talking about the latest game they are playing just because MS banned them?

Cheers,
PKFFW

[Dr. Drib]

Members:

MobileRead does not tolerate personal attacks and name-calling of Members.

In the future, please refrain from doing so.

Let me refer EVERYONE to MobileRead's Posting Guidelines:
https://www.mobileread.com/forums/faq...ing_guidelines



Don (Moderator)