Better without pages

[Jack Tingle]

Originally Posted by Elfwreck

A study wouldn't do much good; I suspect I'm in a small niche in this matter. Well, not too small, perhaps--I read a lot of fanfic online. Which means I read a lot of novel-length stories on a single webpage, and got used to scrolling, and changing screen width based on both site layout and story content. (Long paragraphs = widen the screen a bit; short paragraphs = narrow it to remove whitespace. Highlight text before resizing screen so I can find my place. Centered paragraphs = click the back button, and find out if the story's archived somewhere else.)

This, indirectly, highlights the problem that page-centric people don't seem to understand. One of the features of ereaders is the fact that the person reading can decide how he wants to read. Introducing inflexible formats in this situation is a bug, not a feature.

It's all well and good to tell the reader you know better than he what he _wants_, but don't expect that attitude to be welcomed. You may (mind you _may_) know what he needs, but only the reader knows what he wants. Everyone has different wants, even if they have the same need. Ebooks offer the flexibility to give each reader what he wants whether the author/typographer/publisher likes it or not.

Regards,
Jack Tingle

[ahi]

Originally Posted by Jack Tingle

whether the author/typographer/publisher likes it or not.

N/M.

- Ahi

[dmaul1114]

Originally Posted by Jack Tingle

It's all well and good to tell the reader you know better than he what he _wants_, but don't expect that attitude to be welcomed. You may (mind you _may_) know what he needs, but only the reader knows what he wants. Everyone has different wants, even if they have the same need. Ebooks offer the flexibility to give each reader what he wants whether the author/typographer/publisher likes it or not.

Which is fine for leisure reading, or any books that are just plain text.

Not so much for text books, academic books, scholarly articles etc. where figures and tables need to display a certain way to make sense, be on the same page as the text that relates to them etc.

[dmikov]

Well there is two sides to that. First is the pages and screens are the same thing. I think it's not, just because your reader arbitrarily shows you one screen at a time, doesn't mean it's a book page. Say you are on the book screen 3, change the font to bigger one and you are on screen 6. Not quite the page concept of old. And although some publishers might turn out quite good work, in majority it's not so good or just doesn't jive with me, so I would prefer not to have their idea of paging forced on me (imho)
The second one, is do you like scrolling text. Personally I'am ok with screens of fiction book, but I cannot read paged technical/educational documentation.
I always switch pdf reader to continuous, I have to look back and forth on example and explanations and 99% of the time, they are on different pages so I need to keep current thread of topic in the center of the screen.

[dmikov]

Originally Posted by dmaul1114

Which is fine for leisure reading, or any books that are just plain text.

Not so much for text books, academic books, scholarly articles etc. where figures and tables need to display a certain way to make sense, be on the same page as the text that relates to them etc.

LoL just opposite of what I wrote. How often it is happening for you? I always see then putting it so the page looks good not topics and ideas that should be together.

[nomesque]

Hrmmm... interesting discussion so far

The only contribution I have right now is - I'd HATE to be stuck with scrolling-only. Useful at times, but it slows my reading down. Screenful-by-screenful is my preference for leisure-reading - or for that matter any reading where I don't have to carefully absorb every single detail.

[CleverClothe]

Originally Posted by dmaul1114

Which is fine for leisure reading, or any books that are just plain text.

Not so much for text books, academic books, scholarly articles etc. where figures and tables need to display a certain way to make sense, be on the same page as the text that relates to them etc.

Ah, but in a scrolling environment, everything is on the same page! No more "I'm going to refer to a figure that is too big to fit next to the text that it goes with, so you have to keep flipping pages back and forth. Ha ha!"

I would prefer a scrolling environment (and a device fast enough to support it!) for all the reasons Elfwreck gave, and maybe more. Maybe with a shortcut function to display the next screen full, because that is a handy feature at times. Just like your browser does scrolling, but you can also use the "Page Up" and "Page Down" keys. I read my web content without having to page, well mostly. And I want everything else the same way.

[dmaul1114]

Scrolling just annoys me more than flipping pages. Especially when wanting to just flip through something I've read and made notes on and find a relevant passage for whatever I'm working on.

Just habit I guess. I hate reading stuff online with all the scrolling.

To each their own I guess.

[Jack Tingle]

Originally Posted by dmaul1114

Not so much for text books, academic books, scholarly articles etc. where figures and tables need to display a certain way to make sense, be on the same page as the text that relates to them etc.

They need to display in that way to make sense to you, perhaps. I may want them to display in a different form to make sense to me. Perhaps I like my figures to be visible only as a hypertext link with alternate text, which pops up in a separate window when I click the link. Maybe I like them much reduced as little thumbnails which zoom up when I roll over them. You (generic sense) don't know what I want, only I do. An ebook with straitjacketed, fixed pages only satisfies a portion of the readers. It greatly dissatisfies everyone else.

If you like a very traditional layout, good for you, set your device that way. (In practice, I'm not that far away from your preferences.) Where we split is the idea that pages are _necessary_. They're one way the reader may choose to display the information. Some readers may find them useless. I view them as optional.

WRT scrolling vs. paging, meh. Sometimes I do one, sometimes I do the other. No strong preference. Other people have expressed strong preferences. We all should be able to choose for ourselves.

Regards,
Jack Tingle

[Jack Tingle]

Originally Posted by zerospinboson

Still, paragraph numbers (and the screen space that needs to be reserved for them) are ugly, as well as fairly hard to put in, considering how they would probably have to be in a different column, which would need to be vertically aligned with an agreed-upon line of any given paragraph, which won't really work well in reflowable text, and will be hard to place using most current text processors.

In an ebook, they don't even have to be visible until you ask for them. Don't get trapped into ebook=pbook on screen thinking.

Regards,
Jack Tingle

[dmaul1114]

Originally Posted by Jack Tingle

If you like a very traditional layout, good for you, set your device that way. (In practice, I'm not that far away from your preferences.) Where we split is the idea that pages are _necessary_. They're one way the reader may choose to display the information. Some readers may find them useless. I view them as optional.

That's fine. But as someone who writes scholarly articles, book chapters etc. I want them laid out in a way that gets the information across as I intend.

So I'd be reluctant to publishing in a format that users could mess around with on their own. I want them to see it the way I intend, or not bother reading it at all. It's already enough of a pain hassling with journals etc. to get proofs changed to my liking.

[ahi]

How realistic is the idea that eBooks are supposed/going to accommodate every single person's utterly arbitrary individual preferences?

And how many of those that seemingly have this expectation refused to read paper books that never once gave a damn about them, prior becoming enchanted with eBook reading devices?

The revolution is here... and apparently everyone's going to be their own typesetter, while firmly declaring that they couldn't care less about typesetting.

Originally Posted by dmaul1114

That's fine. But as someone who writes scholarly articles, book chapters etc. I want them laid out in a way that gets the information across as I intend.

So I'd be reluctant to publishing in a format that users could mess around with on their own. I want them to see it the way I intend, or not bother reading it at all. It's already enough of a pain hassling with journals etc. to get proofs changed to my liking.

Apparently eBooks will liberate people from dastardly folks like you and I!

- Ahi

[LDBoblo]

Pages with fixed layout and format allow me to remember information locations using visual structural context.

Scrolling allows me to view information chunks as a customized page view.

I think both are valuable assets, though I prefer pages. I like the idea of page-based format with the option of continuous scrolling, with demarcation for page boundaries. When a button or whatever is pushed to return to "page view", it will snap back into place. This would be handy for a touchscreen device that allows you to pan the document. As long as the screen can support it, which e-ink doesn't so far (too slow).

[ahi]

Originally Posted by LDBoblo

Pages with fixed layout and format allow me to remember information locations using visual structural context.

Scrolling allows me to view information chunks as a customized page view.

I think both are valuable assets, though I prefer pages. I like the idea of page-based format with the option of continuous scrolling, with demarcation for page boundaries. When a button or whatever is pushed to return to "page view", it will snap back into place. This would be handy for a touchscreen device that allows you to pan the document. As long as the screen can support it, which e-ink doesn't so far (too slow).

Or maybe, via the magic of tagged PDFs, the optional removal of visually jarring page boundaries while scrolling (having them instead be indicate by something more discreet than a huge gap between what may well be lines of a single paragraph).

- Ahi

[grimo1re]

I really don't care one way or the other....