eInk readers dying before they spread?

[Kali Yuga]

Originally Posted by junkyardwillie

Final answer...

Not likely

Originally Posted by junkyardwillie

2 - LCD screens such as Pixel Qi will be incorporated into many of the netbooks that are released and will capture a huge portion of eInk's potential market....

I disagree. Not that "no one will read on a netbook ever," but that for the serious readers, the netbook will not satisfy.

• Netbooks will always be heavier than an e-book reader.
• Netbooks will always have a shorter battery life than an e-book reader (as they will be doing other stuff constantly).
• E-book readers don't need antivirus software, anti-spyware, firewalls, disk defragmentation, etc etc.
• Using a netbook to both read a book, and take extensive notes on said book (e.g. for a paper), would suck.
• Electronic paper has more than one use or market.
• Again, multi-task devices do not (and should not) necessarily replace a single- or focused-use device.

Pixel Qi might have something viable, but who knows? They're only had prototypes for like 2 weeks, so it's a tad early to bet the farm on them.

Originally Posted by junkyardwillie

4 - Amazon will eventually sell their ebooks for all devices and become the hub for eBooks, if they do not which will be a disaster for their company Itunes will and Apple will do a little jig (ETA: 18-24 months)

Yeah, no.

For better or worse, Amazon is the market leader in the same way the iPod / iTunes Store has been for a few years. People have complained for years that you can't play material bought through the iTunes store on competitor's devices, and yet somehow the iPod still dominates the market. And just like the iPod, even though the formats are a little limited, you can get books from other sources and they work just fine on the Kindle.

Amazon has full control over the Kindle. Start putting Kindle books on a competitor's device, and it's all headache and no benefit. No archiving, no Kindle store, no wireless delivery, no user data stats, no DRM. And who gets the calls if there's a problem with the books? Why would Amazon ever want to support a dozen devices by Sony and iLiad and Plastic Logic and so forth?

Originally Posted by junkyardwillie

eInk device are not going to get enough volume to bring their prices down to what they should be....

We have no way of know that, or what kind of economies of scale or other manufacturing improvements they will gain from being acquired. Again, they also have more potential applications than just e-book readers.

Originally Posted by junkyardwillie

Mainstream people will not pay $400+ to read books when we use computer screens all the time.

Again, you don't need "mainstream people" to buy your device in order to be successful, as long as you can capture the heavy readers who buy most of the books anyway.

Or to put it another way: Why put a lot of effort into capturing a mass audience, when they aren't going to buy a lot of books anyway? Why even spend $100 on an e-book reader, when you only spend $15 a year on paper books anyway?

Originally Posted by junkyardwillie

A netbook with a Pixel Qi screen at $400 is a much better deal than a Kindle or any other ebook device at $400 because you can use it in so many other ways.

Uh huh. The catch is, generally speaking: The more things your device can do, the less capable it is at doing specific things.

E.g. a 32gb iPhone costs $300 plus the monthly service fee; a 120gb iPod costs $250 with no extra fees, and since it isn't operating as a wireless device, has a longer battery life. Or, an 8gb iPod Nano is half the price, weight and size of an iPhone.

Single-use devices hang around a lot longer than is reflected by the Hype Machine surrounding new electronics. TV's, alarm clocks, wrist watches, radios, phones, DVD players, MP3 players, cameras and so forth haven't and won't go away just because you can put all of those functions into a single netbook. And again, iPods are still outselling iPhones by a huge margin.

Originally Posted by junkyardwillie

Publishers will eventually be forced to release their books as eBooks at competitive rates as they get served with the iTunes effect of everyone just getting their books for free....

$10 / e-book is already pretty competitive -- and around the same price as a lot of other content. The publisher's response, by the way? They're champing at the bit to set their own (higher) prices for retailers.

Originally Posted by junkyardwillie

their prices imply it costs as much to create an eBook as it does for a paperback book and that is not true unless they have the most inefficient computers known to man.

...except that the retailer takes a chunk of the revenue, and has their own costs -- including processing, storage, data transmission, customer service, taxes, legal fees, marketing -- and still needs to stay in line with the competition. Meanwhile the publisher has royalties, their own overhead costs and competitors.

Not that pricing is an exact science, but it amazes me nonetheless how people routinely underestimate the costs involved in a retail business....

[brecklundin]

Originally Posted by Robertb

Dear All:

IF everything remained as now and there were no external pressures to change, we could debate the viability of eBook Readers forever despite that sales are climbing thru the roof. Lets ignore that printed books and audio books went way down last year and that eBooks experienced a 171% increase.

given the low sales numbers that growth rate is based upon, the number is not all that significant just yet. And also it does not imply that the increase has anything to do with eink displays which is the topic for the thread. So, while an interesting and positive observation, it is not, in itself near as important as is increasing the number of reading options for people as opposed to "company store" readers and formats. Still it is a nice positive for those of us who have been reading ebooks long before many even knew that they were.

All things are NOT going to stay the same. They cannot. There is a Limit to Growth for printed books. Old books, particularly paperbacks and newspapers and magazines ALL are clogging up the landfill. That is NOT going to continue forever without sharp penalties and cost to the consumer. eBooks do NOT cause landfill problems.

Printing of books is a huge drain on power and eBooks are not. Printed books mean trees must be harvested.

The big kicker though is what is known as Toxic Paper-Making Bi-Products. Paper Mill Sludge is decimating our rivers, lakes, and streams. Paper Sludge, caused by the bleaching of paper by chemicals to make it white, contains 30 carcinogens and is pure acid and Canada did a major study on the problem last year and found there is no way to effectively alleviate the risk. Like a time-bomb, Paper Mill Sludge Regulation is going to drive many paper mills out of business.

Like it or not... printed books are going away and the electronic reader is the vehicle people think will eventually win out. WHY?? Because you can store 4,000 books on a 16GB SD card and have them forever. Newspapers, magazines, books... all saved, all categorized by date, all available as a resource long after they are popular.

That is a potentially specious comment. There has been no real info as to the environmental footprint of ereading devices over printed books. A fair amount of pbooks come from recycled paper and also, trees are a very easily renewed resource. Though hemp and bamboo, especially hemp (far more parasite, disease and weather resistant not to mention far more durable), are more quickly and easily renewed sources of raw materials to make paper. I am sure you are unaware that the original motivation for making cannabis "illegal" was to include ALL hemp in the US because Hearst had vast investments in the cotton and timber industry to supply paper for his publishing empire. It had little to nothing to do with the drug. And hemp used for rope and paper is a far cousin of the hemp which is used as a medication.

And part of the problem with pollution due to print industry is the books are printed in countries which have very lax environmental restrictions. In fact most devices are also produced in the same countries. So, one really fast way to fix that is to actually enforce publishes to import books or devices from countries which have the same standards demanded of our own industries. Cheap labor is not the only reason production has been moved outside the US or other countries with fairly rigid environmental laws.

Did the Canadian report deal with paper production within Canada or where the majority of books are actually printed? No matter what it's right on that paper production is not that great. But remember neither is the production of the plastics and other components in an electronic device. It many cases the effects of a device are felt not just during production but also when they end up in the landfill.

So, device makers are not lillywhite either. It just benefits them to mention there exists a possibility of improving conditions...of course it's never mentioned if huge scale production of the devices is any better environmentally.

[solariun]

I was reading all the opinions about the LCD / eInk or other ongoing technology and, in my point of view, the eInk gonna last longer due to it is fully capable to only spend energy to print it down and done, no energy draining AT ALL.

The big question in everybody's mind, at this point is: - So, why is the device going out of juice so fast, if its technology claims no energy draining after printing down? The answer for its impasse is: The OS, because most of them are using it as an stat of art Linux for ARM processor or the heavier Windows mobile!

Although, they are meant to be a complete operational system, in which they weren't designed to low power consumption due to running services,

Thus, you could ask me: -Why haven't they made it so? The answer is right below your 'Pocket', and it is - Money-. They could not invest sort of effort without spend loads of time, and besides the eInk Company is providing a complete source code for fast and reliable right-the-way development. The only thing you shall need is to buy their development kit and done, you are ready to build your own fancy eBook device...

I guess the big technology breakthrough would be if someone or a company get committed with a clear stat of art and a possible middle term last project to construct an Operational System like an RTOS (Real Time Operational System), thus providing from starting a good compiler -enough- to construct and adapt existing libs for its system... But as a Developer and a Executive for a big company I can tell you: - With no Money Support and a ferocious market avid to have it to encourage the sponsors and companies executives, where will be no way to make it come true, Unless some "Geeks" willing to move a world wide project to make the - costumer / market - dream come true.

Companies like iRex are already rowing against the mainstream, once iRex is looking after a really good ebook device solution they might missed something on the way. What concerns me is the fact the only thing I have seeing was just a big effort to reach a better device Hardware rather than a good joint between all of their actual hardware and their software. What I can tell you guys about it is, their hardware devices are all "Amazing" and quite advanced but their Operational Systems are the worse things I have seen on life, they look to be a hardware company instead a Hardware and Software company. I really can not understand why (probably was proudness) they haven't assumed to be a standing Hardware company and get a good contract with a known company with good knowledge and expertise to build the software?

I was reading last week on the iRex blog, they are already planning a new colour eBook for the coming years, but I never read anything about the real Sleep Mode coming soon for any ongoing firmware and actual Hardware. They even dare to say: That the Iliad platform will not have any functionality added and they, although, released the source code for an open community showing total missinteresting for the iLiad family Hardware, which I love mine (I have the first generation one).

So, Sony assumed to be a Hardware company, once it has hired a market company to create the PRS software, I had a PRS-505 and my loved one took over it and I kept my PRS-700 (above all it is the best software I have ever seen for eBook readers, faster, reliable and incredible, once compared with actual eBook marketing devices);

More than releasing my Frustrations over here, it is a point of view. The eInk came to rule a brand new market, created for others purposes than only eBooks. Once it has the ability to just spend energy once it is printing down the image and keep it showing on even with no battery or power supply. The possibilities may include to use it on your t-shirt, pants, sneakers, hat or whatever.... it will be up to your imagination. Could you imagine your self having your loved mug and you could apply to download a theme from your most loved team shield, to put a complain or protestation, to joke about something or just to express your moment mood and the only thing you would need to do is just to get it close to its dock and it will transmit energy enough to put a small processor to work, receive it and showing it there, and believe me it's not a dream, maybe you had a "tooth brush" that can be recharged by putting it on its dock and its has no connection at all.... so I am not dreaming that much, I am being really resonable above everything
--- Trademarks would be applied for the expressed idea that just pop up into my mind ---

eInk, as someone said messages ago, is just an infant, But reality is here and it is growing and spreading everywhere, I would dare to say: -one day it will get cheaper enough to be used everywhere or will be replaced from a technology that might kept all of its improvements, features and its particular breakthrough but although will have a video refreshing and so on....


So, We all may start to get ready, because the future is out there chasing after us and getting close faster than ever..... and we may pray to be "conscious" enough to see it when it comes to reality.

Cheers and I will keep looking forward to hear things about it soon.


Gustavo Campos

[kacir]

Originally Posted by desertgrandma

Many people (me included) prefer a device that just reads books.

For some time I have used an old notebook for reading books. Really, REALLY low power notebook. I have managed to install a bare-bone Linux distribution on it, because I needed long filenames for my books. Yes, the notebook was too low power to install Windows 95 on it.

I have striped down everything from the Linux distribution that was not essential to reading books, so I have replaced init with Vim text editor. It meant that when you booted the thing it started the Vim editor and NOTHING else (apart from a Linux kernel, obviously). Vim editor was configured in a "book reading mode", so most of the keyboard was remapped to page up and page down function, you could open any of hundreds books from a central index, the Vim editor opened the last read book at the last read page uppon startup, ...

So. Here I have a book reader that can not do anything except for displaying the book. Yet, it was MUCH more powerful than a typical e-ink reader. Because if I wanted I could write my notes into a book. I could reformat the book, I could replace fancy quotes (from the original book) that displayed as gibberish to something my text console could display. I could just dump any text file on it and not worry about formatting, because I could change the formatting any time I wanted.

To sum it up. I do not want my e-ink reader to be web browser, mp3 player, personal assistant, movie player, general purpose computer. Yet I am ready to pay premium to manufacturer that offers me an e-ink reader that would allow me to correct an error in my formatted book or change formating to something I want at the moment.
In current situation when I load up a book and I find out later that the fancy curly quotes got mangled in the process, or that the indent is too large, or chapters are wrong format I have to go back to the PC edit the book, load up the book and try it again.

[Lemurion]

EInk may or may not survive. It's the best available display system, but it's not perfect.

However, EInk doesn't make the Reader. They make dedicated readers with LCD screens even now, and if they develop a better display technology, I'm sure people will move to it.

Personally, I like multi-function devices, my cell phone has replaced my wristwatch. Having said that I don't think the dedicated reader will be replaced by the multi-function device as soon as some people think.

You see, multi-function devices work best when the functions are compatible - and one of the requirements for a good Reader is directly opposed to the requirements for a multi-function device. Other devices benefit from being smaller - Readers benefit from having a larger screen.

That one factor will keep people buying dedicated reading devices.

[griffonwing]

Originally Posted by Lemurion

Personally, I like multi-function devices, my cell phone has replaced my wristwatch. Having said that I don't think the dedicated reader will be replaced by the multi-function device as soon as some people think.

I just bought a quad-band wrist watch phone. It should be here sometime this coming week. has a built-in camera that can even record video. SMS texting, Video messaging, handwriting recognition, MP3, Mp4 video playback, bluetooth, etc. It even works as an ereader, although I'm not certain of it's ereader formats.

Doesn't reeally matter though, as I will be getting a PocketPro when they come out. The dedicated EZReader PPro will definately be the main reader for me.

[Canuck_in_Japan]

I did my part to kill e-ink by buying a Jetbook

[Kris777]

Originally Posted by Canuck_in_Japan

I did my part to kill e-ink by buying a Jetbook

me too

[dmaul1114]

I do think some multi function tablet will be what really catches on.

But there may always be dedicated readers out there. For instance there's no reason for Amazon to quit making the Kindle, even if more people are accessing the Kindle store on their Apple Tablet (if one comes out) or iPhone etc.

I'd love a multifunction tablet once they can get a screen that's easy on the eyes as e-ink and has decent battery life as I listen to music, surf the net, watch movies etc. on the go (i.e. on planes etc.) more than I read. My Kindle usually stays on the night stand. I bought it mainly to be able to read more with out having to buy books I'll only read once (and have to sell or give away) or hassle with the library.

[jboardman]

I disagree. e ink is much easier to read than reading on a backlit device. I use a computer and monitor all day, and I get terrible eye-strain. I proof my documents when working on the computer by first printing them in hard copy. But I can come home and relax and read my Iliad or my Kindle for hours and never get tired of reading. I think any person dedicated to reading for pleasure will always prefer and e ink screen.

[Argel]

Originally Posted by jboardman

I think any person dedicated to reading for pleasure will always prefer and e ink screen.

I'd be interested to know how you maintain that position. Do you think that the people in threads like this who say they prefer LCD screens are deliberately lying?

[Sweetpea]

Originally Posted by jboardman

I disagree. e ink is much easier to read than reading on a backlit device. I use a computer and monitor all day, and I get terrible eye-strain. I proof my documents when working on the computer by first printing them in hard copy. But I can come home and relax and read my Iliad or my Kindle for hours and never get tired of reading. I think any person dedicated to reading for pleasure will always prefer and e ink screen.

Weird... I only read for pleasure and so far, I prefer a LCD screen... And I never get tired of reading! (I only get tired, which is generally why I fall asleep with my LCD device still on...)

[dmaul1114]

The other thing is that the eye strain issue is only relevant to the niche of avid readers who are reading for several hour stretches nearly every day.

I read at most 1-2 hours at a stretch, and it's usually more like 30-45 minutes before sleeping each night. So I'd be ok with an LCD screen, as long as they can get battery life up to a reasonable level.

And the vast majority of people out there read far less than I do, and thus would never buy a dedicated reader as they just don't need one. So some multifunction tablet could sell to them for non-reading purposes, and then you have more people with the ability to easily buy e-books.

Some kind of multi function tablet that I can read on (including marking up PDFs with a stylus) surf the net, watch movies, listen to music, play games and other apps etc. is very appealing to me.

I may still keep my Kindle around as it's great for the times I do read for long stretches. But traveling a good bit, I'd love some multifunction tablet device with good reader function built in.

[jboardman]

Originally Posted by Argel

I'd be interested to know how you maintain that position. Do you think that the people in threads like this who say they prefer LCD screens are deliberately lying?

How in the world did you infer that I accused anyone of lying? I just stated my opinion, and I will stick by it. If you ever TRY an e-ink device for any length of time, you will see the difference. I also agree that if an e-ink tablet with web browsing capabilities comes to market, I would be one of the first to jump on it. My Iliad allows me to mark up copy and to take notes, so Irex has already overcome that deficiency. I read for pleasure three or four hours a day - from the NYTimes, USA Today, etc., to novels and easier reading. I could never last that long with an LCD.

[Wario]

Today's world every thing as it place.

eInk won't die out any time soon. LCD will be replaced with OLCD.

Mult function device have the places as well, business, students etc..
eReader will live on because it has it place.

It point-less trying to state where ebook's will be used the most.
Just remember Mobilepocket had the market of ebook's before, eInk screen even came out. They were on mult-function devices.
Both will be able to use as an eReader, but they be use different reason. Even now some of the mobileread member as more then one device that they use to read ebook's.
eReader has it place for the home market and the traveling man (or woman).