Seriously thoughtful US/Europe Cultural Divide -- Musings

[Lady Blue]

Originally Posted by nekokami

I'm not trying to argue with individual experience. I'm saying, however, that across the broad studies that have been done, smaller class size correlates strongly with student achievement. There will always be exceptions, and I'm happy for you that you were in such a good educational environment.




Another personal outlook, and one that I see often, is "I don't care what the research says, or how it was conducted. It doesn't match my personal experience, so it's wrong." It's pretty hard for me to have a discussion with people with this outlook. I'm always interested in hearing examples of the educational experiences of different people, but the communication only seems to go one way, which isn't really a conversation.

You said here that you're always interested in hearing examples of the educational experiences of different people, but yet you started out by saying that you're not trying to argue with individual experience. I wasn't trying to argue individual experience either. As I said: I'm sure the teachers and others among us know much more about this subject than I, and I can only speak from my own experience, . . . I may not have been clear enough, but my main point was that things have changed so dramatically over the last generation or two, that money seems to matter much more now for a quality public education than it ever used to. My mother received a quality elementary education in a one room school house in a class of 43 with one teacher teaching 8 grades at the same time. She skipped 2 grades while in this school, yet was by no means a genius, and her family was dirt poor. And I personally believe that countless other factors affect the kind of education you receive as much as, if not more than, the number of students in a given class and how financially fortunate they are.

I certainly hope you didn't get that impression from me. I don't believe I ever said that, or inferred that any research you, or anyone else cited was WRONG. I don't recall anyone else saying that either.

It sounded like you were in oppostion to my individual experience by stating there will always be exceptions , as if I was the exception to the rule. That's not the case. That's just the way it used to be. It was the norm. And it worked.

In the future I will try to be more careful in my responses to everyone so as not to be misunderstood or sound like I'm attacking anyone's views. That was never my intention. I would never attack anyone's VIEWS. A view is a belief, an opinion, one side of a whole, a subjective thought, which in my own humble opinion can never be WRONG, just different.

I apologize to Neko and anyone else whom I may have ired or offended. (And I'm sorry for again returning to this subtopic and beating the proverbial dead horse.)

[wodin]

Would these be the same Nobel Laureates who were chosen by the Nobelstiftelsen that chose a Palestinian terrorist for the Nobel Peace Prize?

[tirsales]

Originally Posted by wodin

Would these be the same Nobel Laureates who were chosen by the Nobelstiftelsen that chose a Palestinian terrorist for the Nobel Peace Prize?

You mean the nobel prize that went to Arafat, Rabin and Peres?

[nekokami]

Originally Posted by Xenophon

Neko -- Can you make some specific recommendations, preferably with links? Some time ago I tried looking for good practical stuff in the academic literature on Education -- and wound up over in Psych rather than Education. The bulk of what I found in education journals was... I'll politely say "seriously deficient" in terms of connection with any reality that I recognized.

EDIT: I was looking into English as a second language at the time, which may have skewed what I found.

Please note: this doesn't mean that all education research is lousy, but rather that the stuff I happen to have found was lousy.

I'd be very interested in readings that are actually useful or insightful or even well-supported by research. Better still if they're accessible to interested scientifically trained non-specialists as well.

I'll see what I can turn up. I think Nel Noddings is very readable, but again, she's more on the philosophical than practical end of things (though she backs up her theories with observational studies). Rogoff isn't quite so accessible.

I would suggest starting with Stephen Jay Gould's The Mismeasure of Man. It is not directly about education, but it is about how the idea of "intelligence" has been abused to maintain existing social structures. And Gould knows his stuff about statistics.

I suppose it might be the case that American culture values the outlier over the statistical norm, but that hasn't been my experience as an outlier. (How's that for a "not my experience" statement? How ironic. Or it would be if there were a study backing up the idea that Americans are more likely to value the outlier... )

[Greg Anos]

Originally Posted by tirsales

I'd guess that its more related to its religious roots - I know (nearly) no country where religion seems to be so important (and quite often, taken so literally).
At least (nearly) all "against homosexuality" (or whatever else) statements I have seen/heard in the US where related to religious reasons.

Regarding culture: Do we want to discuss what each nation has done and why one selves nation is the greatest of all? I've heard statements, that this thread is nice because it is NOT judging or valueing - do you think that this would continue if we start comparing cultural benefits or shortcomings?

I was not trying to boast. How do you show that a culture is not just mono focused (economic) without examples? I could make another list for the EU. (Think of the painting, sculpture, philosophy...)

It seems every time I try to do an overview of the differences, it just starts things all over...

A lot of early immgrants to the US were religious refugees. I guess it should be no suprise that those outliers are still around...

[wodin]

Originally Posted by tirsales

You mean the nobel prize that went to Arafat, Rabin and Peres?

And Mandella and Gore and Carter!

I rest my point!

[tirsales]

Originally Posted by Ralph Sir Edward

A lot of early immgrants to the US were religious refugees. I guess it should be no suprise that those outliers are still around...

I did not intend to imply that it should be surprising - just that it is another difference

[Ea]

Nobody's really mentioned religion yet(?)

I recently stumbled over this:
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/28/us...eligion&st=cse
And later I also read his book. The main point is that Scandinavians are not very religious seen with the eyes of an American. If anything, we're culturally religious - Phil Zuckerman suggests - in much the same manner as Jews. Focus is on tradition and form, not personal faith, and people don't worry about such things as the afterlife or the meaning of life in any religious sense. My educated guess would be that this would actually count for a relatively large degree of Europe. The strong expressions of religiousness and belief in a personal God and saviour seems a very "American" thing.

[Greg Anos]

Originally Posted by wodin

And Mandella and Gore and Carter!

Or why Watson and Crick got one and O.T. Avery didn't...

[Xenophon]

Originally Posted by pilotbob

Hmm... I just don't think they were very smart then. The withholding tables are progressive, so you can't take home "less" if you make more.

BOb

Actually, between phasing out of certain deductions jumping into higher brackets and some other odd effects it was quite possible to lose money by making more. Not common, but quite possible.

More likely, they simply thought that the money earned via overtime wasn't worth the extra hours at work -- at least not when discounted for their particular marginal tax rate. Depending on what year it was, top marginal tax rates got pretty steep. I can remember 70% as the top rate (although I never paid it!); it's been as high as 91% in my lifetime. See the Tax Foundation's web site for details.

Xenophon

[wodin]

Originally Posted by Xenophon

I can remember 70% as the top rate (although I never paid it!); it's been as high as 91% in my lifetime. See the Tax Foundation's web site for details.

Xenophon

I remember having been told that at one time in the UK it was greater than 100%, but I have no basis to prove that.

[tirsales]

Originally Posted by wodin

I remember having been told that at one time in the UK it was greater than 100%, but I have no basis to prove that.

And I believe this to be a myth.

[slayda]

Originally Posted by nekokami

I suppose it might be the case that American culture values the outlier over the statistical norm, but that hasn't been my experience as an outlier. (How's that for a "not my experience" statement? How ironic. Or it would be if there were a study backing up the idea that Americans are more likely to value the outlier... )

I have to agree on the outlier situation. I think it depends on who the outlier is and in which out direction they lie. If the outlier is "cool" (e.g. Elvis) then he sets a new trend, is apprecisted, and soon is no longer an outlier. If the outlier is "wierd" (e.g. me) then he's just laughed at or ignored, unless he's really wierd, in which case something even more "non-appreciative" happens.

As for academic statistics and their validity, there's the old saying on the levels of liers - liers, damn liers, and outliers (er, I mean statistics)

[Gomoto]

I failed to note: I'm particularly interested in other's perspectives both on Carnegie's advice w.r.t. charity and also on the topic of private charity vs. government action. All you Europeans out there need to enlighten me as to why your way is best! (or at least try to politely explain why you see things differently).

Xenophon

private charity vs. government action?

Tent Cities rising in USA or in Europe?

Kind Regards
Gomoto

[nekokami]

Originally Posted by Lady Blue

You said here that you're always interested in hearing examples of the educational experiences of different people, but yet you started out by saying that you're not trying to argue with individual experience.

Yes, I said both of these things. Where's the contradiction? I'm always interested in people's individual experiences, and I would never argue that someone hasn't had a particular individual experience. I just don't think we can generalize from individual experiences.

Originally Posted by Lady Blue

It sounded like you were in oppostion to my individual experience by stating there will always be exceptions , as if I was the exception to the rule. That's not the case. That's just the way it used to be. It was the norm. And it worked.

It worked for you-- I don't doubt that at all. Maybe it worked for your whole class, or your whole school. Maybe it worked for your whole generation, all across the US (though I don't think so). We could speculate on what the individual factors are that have changed between when you went to school and the present, or where you went to school and the rest of the country, if you like. I wouldn't try to generalize from a simple comparison between your experience with school and "schools today," that's all.

Originally Posted by Lady Blue

In the future I will try to be more careful in my responses to everyone so as not to be misunderstood or sound like I'm attacking anyone's views. That was never my intention. I would never attack anyone's VIEWS. A view is a belief, an opinion, one side of a whole, a subjective thought, which in my own humble opinion can never be WRONG, just different.

I apologize to Neko and anyone else whom I may have ired or offended. (And I'm sorry for again returning to this subtopic and beating the proverbial dead horse.)

I am neither offended nor ired. But I don't place individual belief in the same category as reasoned conclusions supported by broad evidence. The former is probably best for making personal decisions, but I would prefer broad policy decisions to be made on the basis of the latter.

Slayda, regarding "lies, damn lies, and statistics," what would you trust more for broad policy decisions using substantial community resources and affecting large numbers of people? (Deciding not to make large-scale decisions IS, of course, just such a decision.)

I value both quantitative research across broad communities, and well-done qualitative research that provides rich descriptions of what happens in individual cases. Qualitative research generates possible hypotheses and causes, whereas quantitative research, done correctly, can confirm or reject these hypotheses. Like any tool, statistics can be misused. (Pie charts are a very good example.) But we all have to decide what tools we will use for which purposes, despite their flaws and risks.

Getting back to the original topic, do our EU members agree that the EU culture values the norm more than the outliers, at least for public policy making? That seems like a broad generalization to me, but there might be some truth to it.