Empty genres; or what to do with all those -punks?

[ZodWallop]

Originally Posted by DiapDealer

Reminds me of those 70s Glade commercials.

Ugh, somehow I got the idea of an air freshener scented like a corpse in a field stuck in my head. Now it won't go away.

[MGlitch]

Originally Posted by ZodWallop

Don't presume too much about me. I wouldn't avoid (or purchase) any book solely based on genre tags attached to them (except 'herbal horror'. Maybe I should start up herbal horror fandom). Reading your own post, it sounds like you wouldn't either. So in the end, those sub-sub-subgenres are of limited to no use.

Until you find the people looking for Herbal Horror books at which point they become exceptionally useful in filtering out everything else. And really for a sub genre or sub sub genre to gain any notable impact people have to use it which generally means it’s of use to them, which is probably why we don’t see a lot of herbal horror tags as a sub genre.

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by hildea

Urban Fantasy isn't Crime/Mystery with an occult twist, it's more like contemporary novel with an occult or supernatural twist. It can be crime, but it can also be romance, or family drama, or "someone is trying to destroy the world (or the city or something) and we need to stop them", or something else.

I agree that the genre name isn't very good. But then I don't think "science fiction" is a very good name either. I understand the problem you mention, but it seems to me that -- rather than hoping that the weird genre names drop out of use -- it would be better if you (and others) learn that good books can have weird genre names attached to them.

Urban Fantasy is fantasy that takes place in the real world. It's that simple.

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by DiapDealer

Reminds me of those 70s Glade commercials.

I cannot stand the smell of artificial air fresheners. They smell awful.

[JSWolf]

Maybe we can use herbal essence for mean books with the a herby theme that are deemed essential reading.

[DiapDealer]

I fear my joke has fallen on deaf ears. Oh well... if you have to explain it, it probably wasn't funny.

[hildea]

Originally Posted by issybird

Not in American.

(English is a weird language )

Originally Posted by ZodWallop

Don't presume too much about me. I wouldn't avoid (or purchase) any book solely based on genre tags attached to them (except 'herbal horror'. Maybe I should start up herbal horror fandom). Reading your own post, it sounds like you wouldn't either. So in the end, those sub-sub-subgenres are of limited to no use.

That part of my post was directed to haertig, who wrote "Too many oddly named sub-genres can be a turn off as well as an invitation."

It seems to me that haertig feels that narrow sub-sub-genres are harmful, while you think they are just useless and annoying -- please correct me if I'm wrong!

Some sub-sub-genres are useful to me, like hopepunk and fantasy of manners. Others aren't.

...I'm starting to get curious about herbal horror, though... My first association was something with triffids

Originally Posted by JSWolf

Urban Fantasy is fantasy that takes place in the real world. It's that simple.

Hm, yes, I probably agree. At least, thinking about it I'll classify historical novels with magic as urban fantasy too, not just contemporary ones.

[rkomar]

Originally Posted by JSWolf

Urban Fantasy is fantasy that takes place in the real world. It's that simple.

I always assumed it had something to do with city life because of the "Urban" part, but I don't follow the genre. Does it also include those regions outside of cities?

[DiapDealer]

Originally Posted by rkomar

I always assumed it had something to do with city life because of the "Urban" part, but I don't follow the genre. Does it also include those regions outside of cities?

It's a fair assumption. There's a seedy underbelly aspect to a lot of the urban fantasy I've read. In my opinion, "urban fantasy is fantasy in the real world" is a little too simplistic. Is Harry Potter urban fantasy? Maybe to some, but it's certainly not a universal classification. What about some of Tim Powers' stuff like The Stress of Her Regard? Definitely real world, definitely fantasy, but certainly not urban fantasy.

No. Like you you, I think an urban environment does play a big part in most urban fantasies. Not that "takes place in the real world" isn't part of it. I just don't think it's enough by itself.

[haertig]

Originally Posted by hildea

That part of my post was directed to haertig, who wrote "Too many oddly named sub-genres can be a turn off as well as an invitation."

It seems to me that haertig feels that narrow sub-sub-genres are harmful, while you think they are just useless and annoying -- please correct me if I'm wrong!

"Turn off" does not mean "harmful". It's much closer to meaning "useless and annoying" actually.

[haertig]

Originally Posted by JSWolf

Urban Fantasy is fantasy that takes place in the real world.

That's a good paradox. "Fantasy" and "real world" don't quite fit together in the same sentence. But I get what you mean. You expect unicorns to be resident in enchanted forests, not New York City.

[ZodWallop]

Originally Posted by hildea

It seems to me that haertig feels that narrow sub-sub-genres are harmful, while you think they are just useless and annoying -- please correct me if I'm wrong!

I won't speak for another user's opinion. But for me, yes. That is a fair summary of my thoughts.

Some sub-sub-genres are useful to me, like hopepunk and fantasy of manners. Others aren't.

Hopepunk...

[hildea]

Originally Posted by ZodWallop

Hopepunk...

From The opposite of grimdark is hopepunk by Alexandra Rowland:

So the essence of grimdark is that everyone’s inherently sort of a bad person and does bad things, and that’s awful and disheartening and cynical. It’s looking at human nature and going, “The glass is half empty.”

Hopepunk says, “No, I don’t accept that. Go fuck yourself: The glass is half-full.” YEAH, we’re all a messy mix of good and bad, flaws and virtues. We’ve all been mean and petty and cruel, but (and here’s the important part) we’ve also been soft and forgiving and KIND. Hopepunk says that kindness and softness doesn’t equal weakness, and that in this world of brutal cynicism and nihilism, being kind is a political act. An act of rebellion.

[hildea]

Originally Posted by DiapDealer

It's a fair assumption. There's a seedy underbelly aspect to a lot of the urban fantasy I've read. In my opinion, "urban fantasy is fantasy in the real world is a little too simplistic. Is Harry Potter urban fantasy? Maybe to some, but it's certainly not a universal classification. What about some of Tim Powers' stuff like The Stress of Her Regard? Definitely real world, definitely fantasy, but certainly not urban fantasy.

No. Like you you, I think an urban environment does play a big part in most urban fantasies. Not that "takes place in the real world" isn't part of it. I just don't think it's enough by itself.

I'm waffling back and forth on this one. I think Harry Potter isn't urban fantasy because most of the story takes place in a magical society, so it's closer to a portal fantasy (like Narnia). For something to be urban fantasy, I'd say the story has to take place mainly in (some version of) our world.

But yes, I guess it feels like urban fantasy should have an urban setting. When talking about Brennan's Unspoken (the gothic book I mentioned in post 15), I've sometimes called it "rural fantasy", so "urban fantasy" but not in cities. But that's not a very interesting subgroup of books (I think?), so I don't see it catching on. There are a lot of books which clearly belong somewhere in the group of "fantasy and science fiction and related stuff", but don't really have a home in a clear subgenre. And that's OK, I guess.

[DiapDealer]

Originally Posted by hildea

There are a lot of books which clearly belong somewhere in the group of "fantasy and science fiction and related stuff", but don't really have a home in a clear subgenre. And that's OK, I guess.

Certainly. It doesn't all have to have a clear subgenre. But there's just too much overlap with "fantasy in the real world" for me to consider it the determining factor in declaring something as urban fantasy.. There's magical realism and historical fantasy. Both of which are fantasy that take place in the "real world".