Ethics and legalities of format shifting

[ottischwenk]

Originally Posted by murraypaul

It really doesn't, they are making more money from you buying eBooks to read on another device than someone who bought a Kindle but never bought any books from them.

No, it's not that simple.
A cheap e-book device is more expensive to buy etc., than it is sold, with the difference being cross-financed from e-book sales.
So if no ebooks are sold, then Amazon will be left with this difference.

[Sirtel]

Originally Posted by ottischwenk

I don't know the Kobo app, my reinstallation from a backup of the Kindle app didn't require a new login to read my Kindle books on the device.

OK, but you're still tied to that one device. That's not independence. You need the servers for every new device you'll buy.

[Quoth]

Originally Posted by ottischwenk

Yes, but each of the pirate books must have been de-DRMed by someone who knows the DRM account data - otherwise it is not possible.

Not true. DRM removal and perfect copies have been demonstrated for HD video, audio (disc, broadcast and streaming) and text. WITHOUT any software tools or special anti-DRM hardware. Also the Pirate could have their own account with fake ID. Top selling authors are pirated from the PAPER ARCs before the book is even delivered to retail.

So totally irrelevant to the individual legitimately buying content and format shifting.

Also you are libelling people calling them thieves for removing or bypassing DRM to format shift.

As well as that some Amazon content is DRM free, by publisher request, but KFX mode adds DRM.

[Uncle Robin]

Originally Posted by Quoth

some Amazon content is DRM free, by publisher request, but KFX mode adds DRM.

One more reason I'm glad I buy mostly from Kobo - 2/3 of the books I buy there are DRM free

[ottischwenk]

Originally Posted by hildea

Ah, but I didn't ask if it was legal. You earlier claimed that doing this hurt the author, that's what I'm asking about.
I'm aware that what I do hurt Amazon, I see that as somewhere between morally neutral and morally beneficent.

Yes, it harms Amazon, but Amazon doesn't put all the money in because it has to buy the e-books too.
The less Amazon sells, the less Amazon buys from the publisher, and the fewer royalties are paid to the author.
The abuse with regard to unauthorized copying therefore harms everyone.
Again: a paper book can only be read by one person at a time - a de-DRMed e-book can be read by a few and usually will be.

[Quoth]

All Smashwords are DRM free.
All Content I've ever produced is DRM free, except some software applications I wrote needed a licence key. That didn't involve a dongle or a server, unlike MS Software that can accept a licence key and later due to DRM decide it's unlicensed and the server is gone, then you are on the phone for maybe 10 minutes, though they've replaced the humans with questions with a robot that just reads out the special key after you type in the gazzillion digits on the phone. Though it's too fast!

[cfrizz]

Originally Posted by Sirtel

The servers will be needed if the app stops working and I need to install and register it again. As actually happens pretty often with both Kindle and Kobo apps. And I can do nothing to ensure the apps won't stop working. That's out of my hands. Now my device may still be in pristine condition, but if the app stops working and the owner of the app is no longer in business, then I'll be screwed. Through no fault or lack of responsibility of my own.

This actually just happened to me with the Kindle for PC software! They did an update which downloaded automatically and then didn't work. Do you think I was going to just sit there and not have access to my books? Hell no! I deleted the useless software, downloaded an old version of the software that allowed me to redownload all of my books. But now I have the control to disinfect them, format shift them and put on all of my devices as epubs. And I'm now insured against more faulty software being downloaded to to mess up my access to my BOOKS!

I don't give a rats ass if the publisher call it a "license", if I'm paying $8.00 for a license that comes in the form of a ebook, then I'm going to make damn sure that license is PERMANANTLY secured for my use in however I see fit that doesn't involve selling, sharing, uploading elsewhere. I never shared my paperbooks, so I'm not inclined to do so with electronic files.

[Sirtel]

Originally Posted by ottischwenk

Again: a paper book can only be read by one person at a time - a de-DRMed e-book can be read by a few and usually will be.

Paper books are usually read by more than one person as well. Not at the same time, perhaps, but the result is the same. The persons reading a paper book bought by another person won't buy their own copy.

Actually, my family members borrow my paper books often. No one reads my ebooks besides me, because the rest of my family prefers paper books. So no, it's not a given that an ebook file is read by more people than a paper copy.

[hildea]

Originally Posted by ottischwenk

Yes, it harms Amazon, but Amazon doesn't put all the money in because it has to buy the e-books too.
The less Amazon sells, the less Amazon buys from the publisher, and the fewer royalties are paid to the author.

I'll repeat my question, in case you want to answer what I actually asked, instead of some other hypothetical situation:

Originally Posted by hildea

• Scenario 1: I buy a book from Amazon, download it to my PC, and read it on my PC using the Amazon provided program "Kindle for PC".
• Scenario 2: I do everything in scenario 1, then strip DRM, convert the book to epub, and read it on my ereader, sitting comfortably in my sofa.

ottischwenk, please explain how scenario 2 steals from the author!

[Quoth]

Originally Posted by ottischwenk

Yes, it harms Amazon, but Amazon doesn't put all the money in because it has to buy the e-books too.
The less Amazon sells, the less Amazon buys from the publisher, and the fewer royalties are paid to the author.

This is nonsense. We are talking about people buying a copy and not passing it on to anyone. Amazon doesn't buy the ebooks ever. The publisher uploads to Amazon and gets paid nothing, but also pays nothing for the free listing. Then when someone buys the ebook, a percentage goes to the publisher and the rest to Amazon. The author might not be the publisher. If the Publisher as a royalty deal, then the author or author's estate gets paid. A publisher might outright own a work, or it might be PD, but their layout / notes is copyright, or the Author might have published direct.

Originally Posted by ottischwenk

The abuse with regard to unauthorized copying therefore harms everyone.
Again: a paper book can only be read by one person at a time - a de-DRMed e-book can be read by a few and usually will be.

This is a separate issue. We all agree that unauthorised re-distribution of copyright works is violation of the rights of the publisher/author/creator.
This has got NOTHING to do with format shifting for personal use.

DRM free ebooks are also pirated.
Paper books are pirated.
The bypassing or not of DRM is irrelevant. DRM is irrelevant to piracy.
You can by-pass Kindle DRM by having a lego robot swipe the page, automatically photograph it and then process as per pirating a paper book.
Almost ALL the the top selling authors have the Paper ARC pirated and sold or shared free before an ebook is even available from Amazon.

DRM is irrelevant.

Apple dropped DRM off iTunes.

[ottischwenk]

Originally Posted by Quoth

Also you are libelling people calling them thieves for removing or bypassing DRM to format shift.

No, I don't call them that - but I think so of them, because almost everyone who writes here defends their view of theft.
Because the damage they cause is, in my opinion, much higher than that caused by pirate servers, which in my opinion are not visited by many, simply because they don't know.
To make it clear again: Every paper book has to be bought and paid for - this corresponds to every license for a file that may not be changed, i.e. it may only be read on the devices approved for it.

[Quoth]

Originally Posted by ottischwenk

No, I don't call them that - but I think so of them, because almost everyone who writes here defends their view of theft.
Because the damage they cause is, in my opinion, much higher than that caused by pirate servers, which in my opinion are not visited by many, simply because they don't know.
To make it clear again: Every paper book has to be bought and paid for - this corresponds to every license for a file that may not be changed, i.e. it may only be read on the devices approved for it.

That's libel. I've not read a post here endorsing theft.

I have a bridge you might like to buy if you really believe what you wrote.

Almost all the search engines list pirate sites.

People that format shift and/or remove DRM and DON'T pirate are the majority. The actual pirates are working on an industrial scale and they will start with a paper copy if the ebook isn't available.

You keep conflating people buying a copy and making personal changes with the behaviour of organised criminals.

[Sirtel]

Originally Posted by ottischwenk

No, I don't call them that - but I think so of them, because almost everyone who writes here defends their view of theft.
Because the damage they cause is, in my opinion, much higher than that caused by pirate servers, which in my opinion are not visited by many, simply because they don't know.
To make it clear again: Every paper book has to be bought and paid for - this corresponds to every license for a file that may not be changed, i.e. it may only be read on the devices approved for it.

What is the damage they cause? Not hypothetical damage, but real damage. You still haven't answered that. The part about paying the author for every device you read their book on is pure hogwash. Yes, it's against the law to format shift, but it's not theft. The author was paid for their book.

Your idea of format shift=theft might have some value if the price for the ebook license was, say, 1€. Then one might claim that you steal from the author if you don't pay them every time you copy the file to a new device. But an ebook license usually has the same price as the paper copy. More so, in some cases. So it's ridiculous to say that not buying an ebook twice or thrice over is theft. You could also say that you steal from the author every time you move your paper books to a new location, or share them with other people. Yes, legally it's not the same, but in reality it is, in most cases.

[murraypaul]

Originally Posted by ottischwenk

No, it's not that simple.
A cheap e-book device is more expensive to buy etc., than it is sold, with the difference being cross-financed from e-book sales.
So if no ebooks are sold, then Amazon will be left with this difference.

That is what I said, Amazon make money selling books, more than readers.

[pdurrant]

Originally Posted by ottischwenk

No, it's not that simple.
A cheap e-book device is more expensive to buy etc., than it is sold, with the difference being cross-financed from e-book sales.
So if no ebooks are sold, then Amazon will be left with this difference.

I think that Amazon make money on every Kindle sold. Where's your evidence that they are selling at below cost?