Sick of Amazon Kindle books without Page Numbers...

[John F]

Originally Posted by issybird

I think very few think page numbers should or do relate to page turns on an ereader. ...

I think it depends on what device one* uses.

I started out with Sony LRF; a page-is-a-screen device. It made sense to me and I liked it.

Than I tried epub and read about epub and I didn't mind the page numbers in the middle of a screen. Seemed a little funky, but it made sense so I didn't care.

I went to a Nook; epub.

Than I went to Kobo and EPub. It had page-is-screen for chapters and epub-pages for total length. I prefered page-is-screen because I check chapter progress more than total book progress.

Than Kobo updated the firmware, and made chapter progress by page-is-a-screen more difficult, so now I use time for chapter progress.

There used to be a lot of posts by first time epub users about "I turned the page and the page number didn't change".

I also don't normally need to reference or sync across ereaders.

I would think it wouldn't be uncommn for a new ebook user to expect page-is-a-screen.

* Did I use "one" correctly?

[Cinisajoy]

Originally Posted by John F

I think it depends on what device one* uses.

I started out with Sony LRF; a page-is-a-screen device. It made sense to me and I liked it.

Than I tried epub and read about epub and I didn't mind the page numbers in the middle of a screen. Seemed a little funky, but it made sense so I didn't care.

I went to a Nook; epub.

Than I went to Kobo and EPub. It had page-is-screen for chapters and epub-pages for total length. I prefered page-is-screen because I check chapter progress more than total book progress.

Than Kobo updated the firmware, and made chapter progress by page-is-a-screen more difficult, so now I use time for chapter progress.

There used to be a lot of posts by first time epub users about "I turned the page and the page number didn't change".

I also don't normally need to reference or sync across ereaders.

I would think it wouldn't be uncommn for a new ebook user to expect page-is-a-screen.

* Did I use "one" correctly?

Yes, you did use one correctly.
Though if you want a critique of this post, you do have a missing O.

[John F]

Originally Posted by John F

...

Than I went to Kobo and EPub. It had page-is-screen for chapters and epub-pages for total length. I prefered page-is-screen because I check chapter progress more than total book progress.

..

The above quote is how I think I remember it worked. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong.

And just checking my Kobo reading stats, it says "Page turns"; "Screen turns" would probably be more accurate as a label.

[John F]

Originally Posted by Cinisajoy

Yes, you did use one correctly.
Though if you want a critique of this post, you do have a missing O.

Dagnabit! Now I have to go back and reread my entire &#%*$& post.

[Cinisajoy]

Originally Posted by John F

Dagnabit! Now I have to go back and reread my entire &#%*$& post.

Just rad the last two lins.

[eschwartz]

Originally Posted by jackie_w

You said they are objectively silly. I'm just disagreeing with you. I find them essential for me because of their consistency. I have no personal interest in academic citing.

And I'm not sure what relevance epub page-map/pagelist would have to my reply because many epubs don't have them. Their absence doesn't stop the ADE auto-generated page numbers being present and consistent when all you're trying to do is easily switch between devices.

I rather thought my whole point was that they aren't consistent on account of some books use Real Page Numbers and some use a set number of characters.

This is completely ignoring the Kobo, which apparently uses 1 screen == 1 page, at least some of the time.
"Some of the time" -- even worse than just having one device which consistently goes against the EPUB grain.

...

To someone who uses both EPUB and Amazon devices, I am sure we all agree that page numbers are just confusing.
But I daresay that even the EPUB world isn't as dreamily wonderful as some would imply.

Perhaps it is about time we had an actual standard for determining locations in an ebook. Surely that would be a far better solution than page numbers which cannot be guaranteed to work the same way on different devices or different EPUB files.

And even if they were always consistent within the ebook world (just not with paper copies)...
I still want to know why anyone should be attached to this specific implementation of a standardized reference system over alternatives that are less unfortunately named.

[Hitch]

Originally Posted by John F

I think it depends on what device one* uses.

I started out with Sony LRF; a page-is-a-screen device. It made sense to me and I liked it.

Than I tried epub and read about epub and I didn't mind the page numbers in the middle of a screen. Seemed a little funky, but it made sense so I didn't care.

A note for you about word usage in the English language:

Spoiler:

(As you have asked about word usage, it's then. Than and then are <sort of> homonyms, although there is a slight pronunciation difference between them. Then is used to convey TIME, or a sequence--e.g., "I went to the grocery store, THEN I went home to cook what I'd bought." Or, "I went to college, and THEN I was prepared to get a good job."

THAN, however, is comparative. "I would much prefer to eat red meat THAN to eat fish." If you said, in this example, ""I would much prefer to eat red meat THEN to eat fish." you would actually be saying that you'd wish to eat your meat course first, and to eat the fish course after. If that makes sense?

So remember: if you could reword what you are saying as "before/after," it's always then; if it's this OR that, it is most likely than. Hope that helps.

Thus, in your paragragph, as you were discussing what happened in sequence, you would use THEN, not THAN.) I hope that you wanted this type of comment or assistance? Forgive me if not.

I went to a Nook; epub.

Than I went to Kobo and EPub. It had page-is-screen for chapters and epub-pages for total length. I prefered page-is-screen because I check chapter progress more than total book progress.

Than Kobo updated the firmware, and made chapter progress by page-is-a-screen more difficult, so now I use time for chapter progress.

There used to be a lot of posts by first time epub users about "I turned the page and the page number didn't change".

Didn't Kobo go to renumbering pages beginning with each new chapter? So you may have 30 or 100 "page 1's" in an eBook, if it had 30 or 100 chapters?

<SIGH> I am in the midst of a rather unpleasant conversation with a client, who decided to hire a proofreader (that she'd used for her print books, mind you) to check her non-fiction eBook. The proofreader returned hundreds of "mistakes." 147 of them are about the color of a specific element (we told them, BEFORE this started, that they only need to mention a type of thing once); but there are scores about how the "page numbers are wrong." That they are either missing or there are "duplicates." The proofer used Nook for PC, i.e., a form of ADE, essentially, and no matter how many times I have explained this, she doesn't "get" that there are no bloody page numbers in the eBook. Her last note to me this morning was "this HAS TO BE FIXED before the book is acceptable." </sigh>

I tell this story to yes, bitch about it, but also because it does demonstrate that John F.'s comment is correct; it's all what you're used to, isn't it?

I also don't normally need to reference or sync across ereaders.

I would think it wouldn't be uncommn for a new ebook user to expect page-is-a-screen.

* Did I use "one" correctly?

You did indeed! :-)

Hitch

[davidfor]

Originally Posted by eschwartz

I rather thought my whole point was that they aren't consistent on account of some books use Real Page Numbers and some use a set number of characters.

But, we aren't comparing the page numbering between two different books. We are comparing the page numbering between the same edition of a book on different epub reading devices or apps. In this case, whether they are Real Page Numbers (I feel like I need a trademark symbol after that) or Adobe generated page numbers doesn't matter as the reading device/app should handle this. i.e. if the page map is available, use it otherwise generate the numbers. If this is done, it doesn't matter which type of page number is being used because it will be consistent across all device/apps for a particular edition of a book.

This is completely ignoring the Kobo, which apparently uses 1 screen == 1 page, at least some of the time.
"Some of the time" -- even worse than just having one device which consistently goes against the EPUB grain.

But, we are talking about two different formats. Kobo supports two primary flowable formats. ePubs are handled by an RMSDK. This follows the page numbering rules of all other RMSDK based devices and apps.

Kobo's own format, "Kobo epubs" or kepubs, are handled by a different reader application on the device. This has the ability to do pages per chapter where each page is a screen and will be renumbered if you change the presentation (font, size, borders, line spacing, justification). It also has an option to use full book page numbering. In this case, a page is not a screen. I don't know if they are using the Adobe algorithm or something else. If they are using the Adobe algorithm, the page numbers can't be compared as a kepub has extra tags in them making them a different size and hence the Adobe algorithm would calculate different page numbers.

[davidfor]

Originally Posted by detayls

I beg to differ. Almost the entire discussion was about how useless the concept of a page number is given the ability to change font and size.

Amazon's addition 5 years ago of the page numbers tied to a print version of the book invalidates this claim.

Sorry, but NO. Amazon adding this five years ago just means that some executive thought it was a good idea. It was probably some marketing executive trying to think of a good way to make the Kindle "different" to other devices.

The amount of discussion on the feature in those five years is probably a better way to validate or not how useful it is. And apart from this thread, I can't comment on it as I don't pay much attention to Kindles. I didn't even know they support this. I do know that when people in the Kobo forum ask about page numbers matching the paper book, if you ask "Which edition?" they usually see why it might not be as good an idea as they thought. Or maybe I should say, not as practical as they first thought.

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by davidfor

The amount of discussion on the feature in those five years is probably a better way to validate or not how useful it is. And apart from this thread, I can't comment on it as I don't pay much attention to Kindles. I didn't even know they support this. I do know that when people in the Kobo forum ask about page numbers matching the paper book, if you ask "Which edition?" they usually see why it might not be as good an idea as they thought. Or maybe I should say, not as practical as they first thought.

Why does the fact that some books have multiple editions make it any less useful, David? It would appear to be fairly self-evident that, if you give a page number as a reference, you have to specify which edition of the book you're referring to.

[MikeB1972]

Originally Posted by eschwartz

That response completely ignores the second part of my post (and the last part of the bit you did quote, should have clued you in).

I will have you know that the reason my post had a second paragraph is because that paragraph was relevant. Relevant enough that the first paragraph is essentially meaningless without it.

Good job.

ADE can use either page numbers added in the epub as a page listing in the html or if they are not there uses a formula to calculate pages, so across ADE readers the page number is more or less consistent. More or less because if your font is big enough or your screen is small enough you can have 4 page 8's

If you are switching between ADE readers and know the page number you were on, it's close enough to manually synch the readers. Probably useful enough if you have multiple readers from different manufacturers (and read the same book on multiple devices).

Paragraph number would of course be handier

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by sanjon

Page numbers don't really make sense on eReaders because of different screen sizes. I'm more than happy to have a percentage instead. And of course you have chapters as well...

Sorry, but page numbers do make sense. Have you not been reading about ADE page numbers? ADE page numbers are exactly the same with the same eBook on any screen size, font size, margins, font, line-height, etc. What page numbers are you talking about?

[latepaul]

Originally Posted by davidfor

Kobo's own format, "Kobo epubs" or kepubs, are handled by a different reader application on the device. This has the ability to do pages per chapter where each page is a screen and will be renumbered if you change the presentation (font, size, borders, line spacing, justification). It also has an option to use full book page numbering. In this case, a page is not a screen.

Is this something turned on in the kepub itself or in the reader options? I've not come across it on my Kobos but I don't check all the settings every time there's a firmware update.

[latepaul]

I regard "real" page numbers in ebooks as a skeuomorphism. Page numbers are an artifact of a physical book, which has a fixed number of pages of a fixed size and can be numbered for reference. Re-flowable ebooks clearly don't share this physical property and there are other ways to provide reference points. For me personally some method of finding my place and knowing how far through I am is desirable (but not essential). Lots of ways to achieve that, I don't get hung up on one in particular.

[MikeB1972]

Originally Posted by HarryT

Why does the fact that some books have multiple editions make it any less useful, David? It would appear to be fairly self-evident that, if you give a page number as a reference, you have to specify which edition of the book you're referring to.

Which would be great if ebooks had editions, but they just seem to have updates without any version numbers.