stylesheet.CSS anyone?

[PeterT]

I forget if it's been mentioned but do take a look at Pablo's tutorial. See EPub_Tutorial

[Notjohn]

Originally Posted by JSWolf

The first attached image shows the eBook with the CSS and the second image shows how bad it looks without CSS.

There is formatting that gets lost without CSS.

Alas, an entire generation has grown up accustomed to the righthand (no CSS) display. They see no reason why books should look different than (oldfashioned) web pages. They LIKE "left justified" text. They LIKE gaps between paragraphs.

[phillipgessert]

Why the objection to CSS? You can drastically improve the look of a book with probably 3-5 lines of it. I definitely disagree that adding empty space into every paragraph in a book-length HTML document is easier than just adding p {text-indent: 1em} once in a stylesheet.

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by ProDigit

The only devices I really looked at making ebooks on, where the Kindle Paperwhite, Kobo H2O, Sony PRS-505, and Jetbook Color.
All of them allow some basic change of fonts, sizes, line spacing, and in some cases margin sizes, and paragraph spacing.

In case of JSWolf's last example, is a good reason to use CSS, using multi font types in one document, ...

But many books only use one font. Especially older books (those in public domain), with only variations either bold or italic text, which can easily be done in HTML.

It's not just the use of multiple fonts. Sis you notice the section with the sans-serif font? Did you see how it is offset from the regular text and without the CSS, that offset is lost so it becomes a run-on mess.

As for the different Readers you mentioned, you did not test them properly because if you did, you'd notice that the 505 does NOT allow changing fonts. The only way to change the fonts used in the 505 is to embed them.

Anyway, let's say you add all your styling code to the XHTML files and then you decide you want to make a change in the formatting? You would have to find every occurrence of that style and change it. In CSS, you just change the relevant class and you are done.

Really, CSS makes life so much easier when designing the eBook. What is it you have against CSS? Why do you want to make life much harder on yourself?

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by Notjohn

Alas, an entire generation has grown up accustomed to the righthand (no CSS) display. They see no reason why books should look different than (oldfashioned) web pages. They LIKE "left justified" text. They LIKE gaps between paragraphs.

That is rubbish. They only read that way because that is how poorly the eBooks are made sometimes. They read the eBooks how they come.

The screenshot with CSS is a much nicer looking eBook than no indent, paragraph spaces, and left justified. Indents show us the beginning of a new paragraph. Paragraph spaces cause the eye to jump out of the text which is OK when you are moving to a new section or the next is offset. left justified was to eliminate the large gaps there were possible with justified and no hyphens. Now we have hyphens and left justified just looks ugly.

What you are saying most people like is total rubbish.

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by phillipgessert

Why the objection to CSS? You can drastically improve the look of a book with probably 3-5 lines of it. I definitely disagree that adding empty space into every paragraph in a book-length HTML document is easier than just adding p {text-indent: 1em} once in a stylesheet.

1em is not a large enough indent. I use 1.2em. But up to 1.2em-1.5em works.

[theducks]

Dang it Jon
I have to agree with you again

1em indent is not enough (for old eyes)
I use 1.2, 1.5 and even 2. But if a publisher uses more , I shrink it down to 2

Spaces to simulate an indent

[phillipgessert]

Originally Posted by JSWolf

1em is not a large enough indent. I use 1.2em. But up to 1.2em-1.5em works.

Hey, thanks for making me think about that for a second. I'd got used to setting for print at 11/13 w/13pt indents, and for some reason translated that to 1em when I started doing ebooks. That's not right, it ought to match (a sensible) line height, not font size. I'm going to shift to 1.2.

[ProDigit]

Originally Posted by JSWolf

It's not just the use of multiple fonts. Sis you notice the section with the sans-serif font? Did you see how it is offset from the regular text and without the CSS, that offset is lost so it becomes a run-on mess.

As for the different Readers you mentioned, you did not test them properly because if you did, you'd notice that the 505 does NOT allow changing fonts. The only way to change the fonts used in the 505 is to embed them.

Anyway, let's say you add all your styling code to the XHTML files and then you decide you want to make a change in the formatting? You would have to find every occurrence of that style and change it. In CSS, you just change the relevant class and you are done.

Really, CSS makes life so much easier when designing the eBook. What is it you have against CSS? Why do you want to make life much harder on yourself?

If memory serves me correctly, the 505 has 3 fonts to choose from.

[ProDigit]

Originally Posted by JSWolf

That is rubbish. They only read that way because that is how poorly the eBooks are made sometimes. They read the eBooks how they come.

The screenshot with CSS is a much nicer looking eBook than no indent, paragraph spaces, and left justified. Indents show us the beginning of a new paragraph. Paragraph spaces cause the eye to jump out of the text which is OK when you are moving to a new section or the next is offset. left justified was to eliminate the large gaps there were possible with justified and no hyphens. Now we have hyphens and left justified just looks ugly.

What you are saying most people like is total rubbish.

It's not that we "like" it that way, but for me it makes no difference to have line indent, different fonts in one document.
When I'm reading, I don't really care if it's in sans serif, times new roman, or some hand script. As long as the font is easily readable, it is about transferring data and information to the brain, much less on how it's done.
Truth be told, I wouldn't even notice if there was a minor font change from one page to the next, and if I do, I jist ignore it and continue reading.

Talking about fonts, this forum often uses different font sizes when browsing it on a mobile device. I doubt many have noticed how sometimes some posts or replies are in smaller fonts than others (using the stock font sizes)

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by ProDigit

If memory serves me correctly, the 505 has 3 fonts to choose from.

You can have serif, sans-serif, and monospace. But you can only choose them in CSS. Serif is the defaul. If you want any different font(s) from the ones used, you have to embed. Serif on the 505 is ugly.

Also, the 505 has a version RMDSK that's so old that it only supports left justification. You have no choice between left and full.

[phillipgessert]

Originally Posted by ProDigit

It's not that we "like" it that way, but for me it makes no difference to have line indent, different fonts in one document.
When I'm reading, I don't really care if it's in sans serif, times new roman, or some hand script. As long as the font is easily readable, it is about transferring data and information to the brain, much less on how it's done.
Truth be told, I wouldn't even notice if there was a minor font change from one page to the next, and if I do, I jist ignore it and continue reading.

Talking about fonts, this forum often uses different font sizes when browsing it on a mobile device. I doubt many have noticed how sometimes some posts or replies are in smaller fonts than others (using the stock font sizes)

A lot of those style decisions are meant to more efficiently move that information to your brain, based on content. For example, paragraph spacing for non-fiction can make a text easier to scan, whereas indents for fiction can help you maintain momentum when moving from one paragraph to the next. So you may not be a car guy, but I bet you'll agree that a racecar isn't well suited for a move, and a moving truck isn't well-suited for a race.

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by ProDigit

It's not that we "like" it that way, but for me it makes no difference to have line indent, different fonts in one document.
When I'm reading, I don't really care if it's in sans serif, times new roman, or some hand script. As long as the font is easily readable, it is about transferring data and information to the brain, much less on how it's done.
Truth be told, I wouldn't even notice if there was a minor font change from one page to the next, and if I do, I jist ignore it and continue reading.

It is about what we like. If the formatting is really bad then we notice the formatting while reading. I like to read where I just notice the words. The second example I posted is awful because the formatting is noticeable. It takes away from reading. The font does make a difference. If it is too light on screen, it makes it harder to read.

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by phillipgessert

A lot of those style decisions are meant to more efficiently move that information to your brain, based on content. For example, paragraph spacing for non-fiction can make a text easier to scan, whereas indents for fiction can help you maintain momentum when moving from one paragraph to the next. So you may not be a car guy, but I bet you'll agree that a racecar isn't well suited for a move, and a moving truck isn't well-suited for a race.

I have to disagree on non-fiction. What works to read fiction also works to read non-fiction. Paragraph spaces don't work. They cause the eyes to see the space and it slows down reading. Also if you have no indent, it means you need to see the space in order to know you've moved to another paragraph. The indents are a quick indication that we've moved to a new paragraph. But if you have a section break, it's oK to not have an indent on the first paragraph of the new section as we've seen the section break and know we are coming up on a new paragraph in a new section.

[phillipgessert]

Originally Posted by JSWolf

I have to disagree on non-fiction. What works to read fiction also works to read non-fiction. Paragraph spaces don't work. They cause the eyes to see the space and it slows down reading. Also if you have no indent, it means you need to see the space in order to know you've moved to another paragraph. The indents are a quick indication that we've moved to a new paragraph. But if you have a section break, it's oK to not have an indent on the first paragraph of the new section as we've seen the section break and know we are coming up on a new paragraph in a new section.

I think it just depends on the sort of book. If I'm reading a guidebook or some reference material and am literally just flitting my eyes across a page hunting for some topic or other, I think I'd rather the paragraph spacing. But if it's meant for continuous reading, is basically telling a "story", then the same rules apply as for fiction.