Legitimate Publishers using Pirated Ebooks as Source

[murg]

Considering the lack of quality in many published ebooks, especially those older books that have been scanned, and then not-proofed very well, I was wondering if some publishers would grab the un-authorised scanned and proofed versions of their books, and base the legitimately published version on the pirated version.

I finally have an example of this.

The Mouse That Roared by Leonard Wibberley is a relatively famous book (and movie), and has finally become available as an ebook on Amazon. It's published by the Estate of the Late Leonard Wibberley. Also available are three other books of the series, the fifth book will be available in the future (more on this later).

Due to owning the physical book, and despairing of such a relatively old (1955) one becoming available as an ebook, I had sourced an alternatively available copy when I saw one. I had not gotten around to reading it yet (my TBR pile is quite large).

As I was reading the legitimate version on my phone, I noticed some extra punctuation (commas and full stops (periods)) that didn't belong, so I checked the legitimate version against an alternately sourced version.

Other than the conversion of some British-isms in the alternate version, and some clean up in the legitimate version, the two versions were almost identical.

Identical to having the same extra punctuation in the same place.

Identical in having the same scene breaks in the same place, and missing the scene breaks in the same place.

Identical to having the same paragraphs split into two.

The real kicker though, was the same mis-scan of "New York Daily News" as "New York Daily Neil's" in chapter 15.

There are also many instances of a British English spelling not being converted to the American spelling.

From all of this, I can only conclude that the Estate of the Late Leonard Wibberley grabbed the pirated version (which was based on a UK edition), did a minimal amount of proofing, and published it. As is their right, as presumably they own the copyright.

The really fun part is that the Estate made a major mistake in the editing. A major plot point of the book is the reason that the Duchy of Grand Fenwick declares war on the United States. The Duchy produces a wine, Pinot Grand Fenwick, which is their only export. The reason was:

“Look at the label,” Gloriana said, placing the bottle before them. They looked and read, with growing horror, the words:

PINOT GRAND ENWICK
The Wine of Connoisseurs

There was a picture of the castle of Grand Fenwick and the label was in every way similar to that used on their Own precious wine. But at the bottom, in type so small as to be almost invisible, was the phrase:

Product of San Rafael, Calif., U.S.A.

The Estate edited the "Pinot Grand Enwick" to be "Pinot Grand Fenwick" throughout the ebook, thereby confusing the excuse for the war. Oh yeah, that capitalisation of "Own" in the quote is present in both versions, but not the physical book.

As to the delay of the fifth book, Beware of the Mouse, this book is not available as an ebook anywhere. It is an incredibly rare book, with a value of over US$400 the last time I looked. So no one has scanned and OCRed it. EDIT: this book is now available for US$9 in paperback and US$4 for Kindle ebook at Amazon! Go the Estate!

P.S. I'd like to thank GA Russell for posting the Amazon link to the discounted book in the Deals, Freebies, and Resources (No Self-Promotion) forum.

[AnemicOak]

There have been some other self-pubbed backlist books where the author grabbed the pirated scan as a starting point, although the author names escape me at the moment. Don't know if any trad pubs have done this for any of their backlist titles.

[murg]

Another interesting question is: assuming that you have the ebook rights in one country but not another, can you grab a pirated version issued by a publisher in the country you don't have rights in, to generate the version for the country you do have rights in?

[cromag]

Obligatory disclaimer: I'm not a lawyer (in any country)!

But, piracy is theft and title (ownership) cannot pass through theft, in any country that I know of. So, I have no problem with, and in fact encourage, authors and other rightful owners using a pirated version of a book as the source for a legitimate version.

I also don't like laziness, and if the rightful owners are going to charge for a work it should be worth the price. Which the pirated copy probably isn't. Using a flawed source doesn't relieve the publishers of their responsibilities.

If I'd bought that book I'd send an email detailing my disappointment to the publishers.


As far as using a pirated copy from a different jurisdiction to generate a copy for your own jurisdiction -- sure! After all, you have the right in your jurisdiction and the pirate didn't have any legal rights anywhere.

But I can only see this as a realistic problem in cases where translation would be involved. An English pirated version of a book published by pirates in Canada would be available on the web for (local) download for a rights holder in Australia.

[murg]

Originally Posted by cromag

As far as using a pirated copy from a different jurisdiction to generate a copy for your own jurisdiction -- sure! After all, you have the right in your jurisdiction and the pirate didn't have any legal rights anywhere.

The version from the other country is copyrighted by someone other than you, so theoretically you shouldn't be able to make a copy of it.

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by murg

The version from the other country is copyrighted by someone other than you, so theoretically you shouldn't be able to make a copy of it.

In almost all cases the copyright is held by the author, not the publisher. The author grants the publisher the right to publish the book in a particular country or region, but the publisher does not hold the copyright on the book.

[gweeks]

I know Baen did this for The Witches of Karres. It was a starting point though and went through a full proofing step. When I did The Hunter Returns for Baen we started with the PGCanada text of Fire-Hunter. But again, Baen inserted it into their workflow as if it had come from an author and ran it through their normal proofing process.

Greg

[fjtorres]

Originally Posted by AnemicOak

There have been some other self-pubbed backlist books where the author grabbed the pirated scan as a starting point, although the author names escape me at the moment. Don't know if any trad pubs have done this for any of their backlist titles.

Jerry Pournelle.
He issued a call on his website asking for good clean copies.
Fans came through.
He then proofed them before sending them out

[pwalker8]

Originally Posted by fjtorres

Jerry Pournelle.
He issued a call on his website asking for good clean copies.
Fans came through.
He then proofed them before sending them out

Are you sure about that? Pournelle pioneered writing on a computer, writing on a Z-80 back in the late 70's. I would think that he had electronic copies of all his books.

[Nate the great]

Originally Posted by pwalker8

Are you sure about that? Pournelle pioneered writing on a computer, writing on a Z-80 back in the late 70's. I would think that he had electronic copies of all his books.

Of the original manuscript, perhaps (and would that old file still be readable?). But the finished, edited, proofed, and published book?

Probably not. Book publishing didn't really start going digital until, what, the 1990s? So it's possible that a lot of his early work had to be scanned before it could be released digitally.

[GERGE]

Actually, book designs are protected as an intellectual property of the publisher. So, if the pirate registered her design (not as the design on book x, but as an ebook template), then yes, publisher can't use it. But the intellectual property owner needs to sue herself, I don't see this happening. But the pirated ebook's design might also be pirated from a legitimate ebook; so, publishers shouldn't do this.

Same thing applies to the ebooks designed in other countries (like USA and UK versions), they can't use each other's designs without permission.

Wipo has a documents about this, check it.

PS. This is what I know, but I didn't check any codes or international agreements. I might be remembering something wrong. This is arcane knowledge =) (as in never actually becomes relevant as far as I know, just there to be there.)

[Cinisajoy]

Originally Posted by GERGE

Actually, book designs are protected as an intellectual property of the publisher. So, if the pirate registered her design (not as the design on book x, but as an ebook template), then yes, publisher can't use it. But the intellectual property owner needs to sue herself, I don't see this happening. But the pirated ebook's design might also be pirated from a legitimate ebook; so, publishers shouldn't do this.

Same thing applies to the ebooks designed in other countries (like USA and UK versions), they can't use each other's designs without permission.

Wipo has a documents about this, check it.

PS. This is what I know, but I didn't check any internation agreements or codes. I might be remembering something wrong. This is arcane knowledge =) (as in never actually becomes relevant as far as I know, just there to be there)

Could the original owner still use the words in the book since rightfully they own the words.

[GERGE]

The content and the design are different (disregarding the books like House of Leaves).

Let me put this in a different way, css file within the epub is a seperate intellectual property.

[bgalbrecht]

With the exception of Baen, all of these examples seem to be of authors or their estate starting with pirated ebooks. I know Walter Jon Williams also did this, but he also offered rewards for fans who could provide him with a few ebooks he was missing. I provided the base for Days of Atonement. I am pretty sure he did full copyediting for all of his ebooks created from the pirated ebooks.

I would be wary of self-published ebooks from Norman Spinrad. The Kindle ebook of The Mind Game was not copyedited, and had problems like missing italics and incorrect paragraph breaks.

[theducks]

Originally Posted by pwalker8

Are you sure about that? Pournelle pioneered writing on a computer, writing on a Z-80 back in the late 70's. I would think that he had electronic copies of all his books.

When was the last time you saw a working CPM machine (not in a museum)?
Did it have 8" floppies or 5.25" floppies?

I would be surprised if data was recoverable without extraordinary (expensive) means.
Old Early floppies tend to jam in their sleeves. If it does, the disk is now toast
Data print through/bleed-over is another lurker.

Not saying ALL will fail. I have many open reel tapes (some Quad). The Mylar ones play nicely, the acetate ones ) Good quality media, treated nice can survive.