CSS question: breaks and indents

[GeoffR]

I think of a scenebreak as an empty header, rather than an empty paragraph. <h6 class="scenebreak"> rather than <p class="scenebreak">. In some books the scenes are numbered, or might have a title like "Meanwhile, on the other side of town ...", or a timestamp.

Simply adding a margin to the top of the first paragraph of a scene to indicate the break is a bad idea because that margin could be absorbed into the @page margin if the scene happens to begin at the top of a page, and if the reader has chosen to read ragged right then there may be no way to tell that there was a break at all.

[Turtle91]

Originally Posted by GeoffR

Simply adding a margin to the top of the first paragraph of a scene to indicate the break is a bad idea because that margin could be absorbed into the @page margin if the scene happens to begin at the top of a page, and if the reader has chosen to read ragged right then there may be no way to tell that there was a break at all.

Excellent point! although I'm not sure what ragged right has to do with it?? Wouldn't justified be just as difficult to determine?

I make a scenebreak non-indented as well to handle that particular instance.

[GeoffR]

Originally Posted by Turtle91

Excellent point! although I'm not sure what ragged right has to do with it?? Wouldn't justified be just as difficult to determine?

When the para is fully justified and the next scene starts flush left then you can usually tell there is a break because the last line of the para is not justified. But if the next scene starts with an indented para then even fully justified there is no way to see the scene break, it just appears as a normal paragraph break.

I make a scenebreak non-indented as well to handle that particular instance.

That doesn't usually help when reading ragged right, it just makes the first paragraph of the new scene appear to be a continuation of the current paragraph, unless the last line of the paragraph was very short.

[Hitch]

Originally Posted by GeoffR

I think of a scenebreak as an empty header, rather than an empty paragraph. <h6 class="scenebreak"> rather than <p class="scenebreak">. In some books the scenes are numbered, or might have a title like "Meanwhile, on the other side of town ...", or a timestamp.

Simply adding a margin to the top of the first paragraph of a scene to indicate the break is a bad idea because that margin could be absorbed into the @page margin if the scene happens to begin at the top of a page, and if the reader has chosen to read ragged right then there may be no way to tell that there was a break at all.

You mean, like in print, where it's exactly the same? This happens all the time in print; a scene-break paragraph falls at the top of a new page. Thus, it, too, has it's top-margin "absorbed" by the book's trim and margins. Nonetheless, print readers manage to figure out that it's a new scene.

Originally Posted by Turtle91

Excellent point! although I'm not sure what ragged right has to do with it?? Wouldn't justified be just as difficult to determine?

I make a scenebreak non-indented as well to handle that particular instance.

Yes, both ragged-right and justified would have the same problem. And, in theory, if the preceding paragraph is JUST long enough, in either instance, with a flush-left para at the top of the following page, it's remotely possible that the reader mightn't know that they were in a new scene. Normally, in print, you adjust this by tightly kerning the prior para (at the bottom of the prior page) enough to clearly indicate that the last line is the end of the paragraph. This way, the flush-left start to the new para is clearly indicative to the reader that a new scene has commenced.

Obviously, in eBooks, you cannot kern like this.

In either instance, it's not uncommon for the designer to determine to use an incipit mechanism for the first line of a new chapter's first paragraph (smallcaps, Raised Initial, etc.) AND for each instance of a scene-break. That's another "tell" for the reader.

A third option is fleurons--hopefully, not simply the ubiquitous "***".

FWIW, we use top-margin for scene-breaks ALL the time.

Hitch

[GeoffR]

Originally Posted by Hitch

You mean, like in print, where it's exactly the same? This happens all the time in print; a scene-break paragraph falls at the top of a new page. Thus, it, too, has it's top-margin "absorbed" by the book's trim and margins. Nonetheless, print readers manage to figure out that it's a new scene.

In print the publisher can look at where the scene break falls on the page and add an asterism, dropcap or some other visible indicator if it woud be ambiguous without it. Can't do that with an ebook, so the only way to be sure is to always add a visible indicator of the break and never rely just on adding margin to the top of the new scene.

[Notjohn]

Originally Posted by Hitch

And, in theory, if the preceding paragraph is JUST long enough, in either instance, with a flush-left para at the top of the following page, it's remotely possible that the reader mightn't know that they were in a new scene.

Someone might think it was the same paragraph, continuing from the previous page? That would be remote indeed, and I doubt it would apply to any experienced reader. (And what other kind of reader would a writer want?)

Just as poets have this mad notion that they should DESIGN the page in addition to writing the poem, writers think they should use weird fonts for some obscure reasons of their own. (I did this too, in my second novel. I insisted, wept, pounded the table, and finally got Doubleday to use a font that I liked, because it had a pleasant italic, and I had used a lot of italics. Now I can't even remember what the font was! The book has been published many times since, in British and Dutch and paperback and digital editions, and of course nobody (including me in recent years) has ever paid the slightest attention to my chosen font.

So it is with prose. The reader can figure it out. Readers aren't stupid, or they wouldn't be reading our books. That was true in 1965 when that novel was published, and it's even truer today, when the stupid people are all watching streaming video.

[Hitch]

Originally Posted by GeoffR

In print the publisher can look at where the scene break falls on the page and add an asterism, dropcap or some other visible indicator if it woud be ambiguous without it. Can't do that with an ebook, so the only way to be sure is to always add a visible indicator of the break and never rely just on adding margin to the top of the new scene.

Yes, they can, (more below) but oftentimes do not. I've encountered it recently in several novels I've read. And, no, they weren't self-pubbed cheapies; they were big books. The publisher relied on the reader's good sense to know that they'd scene-shifted, simply because the last line of prose ended a few letters (literally) before the top of the next page.

In fact, the reason I know that we see this a lot is because we do a fair amount of work from scanned material (backlist, etc.). We are constantly having to review the printed page, so to speak, for this very reason--ABBYY could not, as does a person, detect a scene shift, because the page was laid out just as described--the last line of the preceding paragraph was long enough to "fool" Abbyy that the next line, flush-left, top of the next page, was a continuation of that para, not a new one.

What you're thinking about is really not quite the same. Publishers do NOT want fleurons to appear at the top of any given page as the first element after the running head, because it looks funky. If the prior page is just long enough to go squared, they'll simply flush-left the next para. Because the other option is you have to delete/lose TWO lines, at least, usually 3; you need the last line to end pretty much not less than 3 lines from the last line of the page, to squeeze in a fleuron, and even that is too tight. So, you would lead/kern heavily, and shoot for it, but that is a LOT of writing to lose. You then end up asking the author (or publisher's editor) to nuke and rewrite 3-4 lines of text--now, mind you, this is JUST for typography. Roughly 240-300 characters. 99 times out of 100, for this precise scenario, the publisher chooses to trust the reader to understand that a scene break has occurred, by using the basic flush-left convention. Because, to them and to convention, a fleuron at the top of the page is just ghastly.

When we have our print clients review their advance copies, I request that they look for this exact thing, so that they and we can catch it and deal with it, IF they choose (most do not, mind you).

Originally Posted by Notjohn

Someone might think it was the same paragraph, continuing from the previous page? That would be remote indeed, and I doubt it would apply to any experienced reader. (And what other kind of reader would a writer want?)

Not as remote as you think, see above. It actually happens fairly often. We have a book in right now with a boatload of scene-breaks, shifts, and we've had to redesign chunks of it for this reason.

Just as poets have this mad notion that they should DESIGN the page in addition to writing the poem, writers think they should use weird fonts for some obscure reasons of their own. <snip for brevity>... has ever paid the slightest attention to my chosen font.

So it is with prose. The reader can figure it out. Readers aren't stupid, or they wouldn't be reading our books. That was true in 1965 when that novel was published, and it's even truer today, when the stupid people are all watching streaming video.

We have a book in right this second, that we're doing for print/eBook, and oish, is this one like that. The client has a telepathic character, and so thus we have regular body fonts, heading fonts, and a very foofy font for the telepathic transmissions of the protagonist. I've endeavored to try to not use the foofy font (yes, kiddles,it's....Papyrus!), but the alternatives s/he has asked for are worse. Papyrus also does not work at Amazon's KDP; nor do most of its quasi-clones, although (she said, sadly), we do have an OS font that does work rather well that's similar enough that we use the Pap in print and the replacement in eBooks.

Poetry? No reasoning with those folks. Just invested a 1+ hour phone call with a very nice lady who wanted to do her work (poetry/bible verses) in FXL, because she couldn't stand to have the couplets/stanzas, etc., BREAK across page/screens. I 'splained, that folks who read on e-reading devices are perfectly accustomed to this phenomena. I told her, hey, you want FXL, we'll do it for you, but I recommend against it, and yadda-yadda is why. Sadly, haven't heard back from her. That's what I get for being truthful with folks. ;-)

Hitch

[Notjohn]

Well, point taken, but: Sure, it may happen on the physical or virtual page 3 times out of 1000 pages, maybe more often with dedicated scene-shifters, but how often does it actually BOTHER the actual reader, as opposed to the worried formatter?

I can't recall this ever having happened to me, and I have been reading books since I discovered the Rochester NH library in 1941. At two a week, that would be 7,696 books, or call it 7,500 to allow for the times I've slowed the pace.

[GeoffR]

Originally Posted by Notjohn

Well, point taken, but: Sure, it may happen on the physical or virtual page 3 times out of 1000 pages, maybe more often with dedicated scene-shifters, but how often does it actually BOTHER the actual reader, as opposed to the worried formatter?

I can't recall this ever having happened to me, and I have been reading books since I discovered the Rochester NH library in 1941. At two a week, that would be 7,696 books, or call it 7,500 to allow for the times I've slowed the pace.

I've never had it happen in a paper book, but it happens frequently enough in ebooks that I now edit any book with the margin-top method of making scene breaks and change it to padding-top instead. Not an ideal solution, but easy to do.

[Notjohn]

I realize that I had my boots on when I crashed this party. (I'm sorry, Hitch! I should know better than to outthink you!) Of course all those books were print editions and had been tweaked with more or less intelligence; it's only the e-books where it might be a problem. I will use four tildes centered henceforth if there's any chance of confusing the reader.

Though I am reading Jonathan Franzen's Purity at this moment. It doesn't have any of these scene shifts that I've noticed, but I'm confused most of the time.... Who are these people? Why are they so alike?

[Turtle91]

I always enjoy a good fleuron rather than the "***". They can really add to the feel of the book, and are so easy to put in there:

<div class="SecBrk"><img alt="" src="../Images/fleuron.jpg" /></div>
<p>Next bit-o-the-story...</p>

CSS:
div.SecBrk {margin:2em auto; text-indent:0; text-align:center; 
            width:15%; min-width:25px; max-width:150px} 

div.SecBrk + p {text-indent:0}

Note: although I think the text-indent and text-align aren't needed for a div, I leave 'em just to make sure.
I've heard that some sub-standard readers don't support ".SecBrk + p" so you would have to give that paragraph it's own class if desired.

Even without the fleuron, a top margin of 2em and no-indent certainly makes it obvious that it is a section break. I don't think anyone (in their right mind) would put a 2em padding around the page that would absorb the top margin. On the rare occasions that a section break actually appears at the top of a screen there would be a little extra space, and the no-indent makes it obvious enough in my opinion.

edit: just had to add this example of some awesome fleurons! Can you imagine the mood of the book when you see these every so often?? (lol)

[Turtle91]

Oh yeah (yes, I'm bored. Get over it )

Please, please, please don't put multiple copies of the SAME image to be used for each instance of the fleuron...or worse yet, images of "***" !!


Cheers!

[Hitch]

Originally Posted by Turtle91

Oh yeah (yes, I'm bored. Get over it )

Please, please, please don't put multiple copies of the SAME image to be used for each instance of the fleuron...or worse yet, images of "***" !!


Cheers!

you have NO idea how often I've seen that. We get a lot of DIY books to "fix up" (grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr....we end up usually having to charge almost or even MORE than we would have charged to just do the damn thing in the first place; people are so penny-wise and pound foolish!), and I see this ALL THE TIME, the 29 copies of a fleuron thing. Oish!

NJ wrote:

I realize that I had my boots on when I crashed this party. (I'm sorry, Hitch! I should know better than to outthink you!) Of course all those books were print editions and had been tweaked with more or less intelligence; it's only the e-books where it might be a problem. I will use four tildes centered henceforth if there's any chance of confusing the reader.

Pshaw, don't be silly. It's just the experience talking, not brains. We see it also ALL THE DAMN TIME, because of scans. Our scans, other folk's scans...never ends.

Hitch

[doubleshuffle]

Originally Posted by Turtle91

Please, please, please don't put multiple copies of the SAME image to be used for each instance of the fleuron...or worse yet, images of "***" !!

The horror, agreed. And I have bought books from big publishers where they did just that. Unbelievable...

[Notjohn]

I just had occasion to use those four tildes. Went to center them--Sigil wouldn't obey. Put in <center>~ ~ ~ ~</center>. Got an error! Slapped forehead and use the p.center style instead.

I had no idea we weren't allowed to force a center in an epub! I do it all the time on the web.