EU vice-president: Copyright legislation is “pushing people to steal”

Dopedangel · 06-09-2015, 11:20 PM

Andrus Ansip, the European Commission's Vice-President for the Digital Single Market, has admitted that EU copyright law is "pushing people to steal," because they seek out illegal copies of works that are not available to them legally because of the widespread use of geoblocking in Europe.

Ansip was interviewed as part of the music industry's annual Midem event (available as a video, found via TorrentFreak). He pointed to Spotify as an example of how people could be encouraged to pay for copyright material: "if somebody is able to provide services with better quality, with higher speed, people prefer to act as honest people; they are ready to pay, they don't want to steal.

http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2...ople-to-steal/

I hope this changes current copyright and contract models for media. I think this is the worst problem in ebook publishing where most publishing contracts were by country so different publishers are selling in different markets. So books get released on different dates at different prices.

AnemicOak · 06-09-2015, 11:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dopedangel

I hope this changes current copyright and contract models for media. I think this is the worst problem in ebook publishing where most publishing contracts were by country so different publishers are selling in different markets. So books get released on different dates at different prices.

This is of course not unique to eBooks. Some video & music contracts are also Geo based with different movie studios and record labels holding distribution rights in different places. As for pushing people to steal (or infringe copyright anyway) maybe, but even if you could buy all the movies, books & music available on the market for really low prices there would still be tons who feel it's fine to download what they want for "free".

EowynCarter · 06-10-2015, 01:52 AM

If there's no proper legal offer, people will pirate.
Thanks captain obvious.

HarryT · 06-10-2015, 03:47 AM

This is a rather misleading headline. Geoblocking has nothing to do with copyright law - it's a contractual issue concerning the markets that the distributor has purchased the right to distribute the material into.

HarryT · 06-10-2015, 03:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EowynCarter

If there's no proper legal offer, people will pirate.

No, only dishonest people will. The fact that I can't buy something - either because I can't afford it, or it's not available where I live - does not make it acceptable for me to steal it. Not to me it doesn't, anyway.

Sweetpea · 06-10-2015, 04:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HarryT

No, only dishonest people will. The fact that I can't buy something - either because I can't afford it, or it's not available where I live - does not make it acceptable for me to steal it. Not to me it doesn't, anyway.

Then I'm a dishonest person. I'm willing to pay for the privilege to read/watch/hear something, but if some arbitrary person thinks I should not simply because of where I live, I think that arbitrary person can stuff it and I'll get it another way.

HarryT · 06-10-2015, 04:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sweetpea

Then I'm a dishonest person.

Where we disagree is that I don't think you have some automatic "right" to have access to something like a TV show. If a show isn't available in your country there's generally a way around it - eg you can wait until it comes out on DVD in its country of origin, and then buy the DVD.

EowynCarter · 06-10-2015, 04:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HarryT

No, only dishonest people will. The fact that I can't buy something - either because I can't afford it, or it's not available where I live - does not make it acceptable for me to steal it. Not to me it doesn't, anyway.

True.
I mostly do without. I read/watch something else. That why i have so many TV show to catch up on Netflix.

Then, i watched the fist seasons of game of thones though illegal means. Now that OCS is available, I take the OCS subscription for these few months. Everybody wins.

No offer available mean than even normally honest people will eventually pirate if he really wants to read the book / watch the TV show.

John F · 06-10-2015, 06:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HarryT

No, only dishonest people will. The fact that I can't buy something - either because I can't afford it, or it's not available where I live - does not make it acceptable for me to steal it. Not to me it doesn't, anyway.

Just to play devil's advocate ...

Exactly. Even when "honest" people can buy/pay, they don't.

Example. They build up a nice library for their eink Kindle using the Amazon garden (buying from Amazon). Then they buy a much better Kobo. They strip the DRM from all the Amazon books and copy them to their Kobo. Some people do this for thousands of books; the dirty little thieves.

Barcey · 06-10-2015, 06:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HarryT

No, only dishonest people will. The fact that I can't buy something - either because I can't afford it, or it's not available where I live - does not make it acceptable for me to steal it. Not to me it doesn't, anyway.

Maybe but what he's saying is that 68% of the people are doing it (for video) so apparently you're in the minority. He's saying that the solution is to fix the broken business model rather than creating tougher laws to fix 68% of the population.

HarryT · 06-10-2015, 06:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Barcey

Maybe but what he's saying is that 68% of the people are doing it (for video) so apparently you're in the minority. He's saying that the solution is to fix the broken business model rather than creating tougher laws to fix 68% of the population.

Are you suggesting that all content providers should be forced to only sell world-wide rights? The result of that would almost certainly be massively increased prices for the consumer. That's why virtually all video streaming services are single country - the cost of buying right to show it world-wide would be huge, and the legal issues horrendous, with different rights-holders in different countries.

Again, though, none of this has anything to do with "copyright legislation". The title of this thread is extremely misleading.

latepaul · 06-10-2015, 06:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HarryT

This is a rather misleading headline. Geoblocking has nothing to do with copyright law - it's a contractual issue concerning the markets that the distributor has purchased the right to distribute the material into.

What is the right to distribute based on if not copyright?

HarryT · 06-10-2015, 07:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by latepaul

What is the right to distribute based on if not copyright?

You misunderstand me. Of course these are copyrighted works, but copyright law is not the reason for georestrictions; such restrictions are simply down to the terms of distribution contracts. Changing copyright law would have absolutely no impact on such contracts.

pwalker8 · 06-10-2015, 07:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HarryT

No, only dishonest people will. The fact that I can't buy something - either because I can't afford it, or it's not available where I live - does not make it acceptable for me to steal it. Not to me it doesn't, anyway.

I think you confuse the moral concept of honesty with the legalistic idea of obeying the law. The two are not the same. People tend to obey laws they consider fair or righteous, they tend to ignore laws that they don't consider fair or righteous.

Pirating digital media is not stealing, at least not legally. It's violating the government granted monopoly to copy said media, a different legal violation all together.

darryl · 06-10-2015, 07:07 AM

Sometimes I think that Harry is the only honest person here, at least by his own rigorous standards. Personally, I think geographic restrictions are an abomination for digital products, and I have no moral qualms about avoiding them. I also believe that intellectual propery laws have become very bad laws. In most countries they have lost any semblance of balance or fairness, and are viewed by many as either a laughing stock or simply irrelevant. No matter how often it is repeated, intellectual property is not "property" in the sense of tangible property like land. Nor is it appropriate for legislation to try to make it so. Modern competition policy takes the view that monopolies are bad. When laws grant a statutory monopoly, it is a privilege accorded to the grantee. The theory is that the harm to the public of granting the monopoly is more than offset by the greater public good. Unfortunately, with Copyright in particular, this has long ceased to be the case. The rights of a copyright holder should not be determined by analogy with tangible property like land. Rights given should be balanced so as to minimise the harm caused by the monopoly. They should be for a far more limited time. They should reflect the reality of todays market. Geographic restrictions should be outlawed, as should geographic price discrimination. This simply acknowledges the reality of the internet and the resulting single market. Arguably creators should, for their own protection, not be allowed to completely alienate their copyrights or even licence them for extremely long terms.

The maxim that two or more wrongs don't make a right is of course correct. However, it is not realistic to expect that human nature sits easily or at all with allowing all sorts of depredations on the part of, for instance, large publishers, who then hide behind the rigidity of the often draconian laws they have themselves procured, all the time shouting that they have the high moral ground. Whilst it is clearly wrong to pirate a copyrighted work for many reasons, no matter how deplorable the copyright holders conduct may have been, my sympathy is reserved for the actual authors who do not get paid. I have none for the publishers.

Finally, I should add that these laws exist, they are the law, and I don't want to encourage others to break them. We should do what we can, legally, to change them. Because they are very bad laws.

06-09-2015, 11:20 PM	#1
Dopedangel Wizard Posts: 1,798 Karma: 30548723 Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Singapore Device: Boyue	EU vice-president: Copyright legislation is “pushing people to steal” Andrus Ansip, the European Commission's Vice-President for the Digital Single Market, has admitted that EU copyright law is "pushing people to steal," because they seek out illegal copies of works that are not available to them legally because of the widespread use of geoblocking in Europe. Ansip was interviewed as part of the music industry's annual Midem event (available as a video, found via TorrentFreak). He pointed to Spotify as an example of how people could be encouraged to pay for copyright material: "if somebody is able to provide services with better quality, with higher speed, people prefer to act as honest people; they are ready to pay, they don't want to steal. http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2...ople-to-steal/ I hope this changes current copyright and contract models for media. I think this is the worst problem in ebook publishing where most publishing contracts were by country so different publishers are selling in different markets. So books get released on different dates at different prices.

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06-10-2015, 01:52 AM	#3
EowynCarter Wizard Posts: 4,338 Karma: 4000000 Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Paris Device: Cybooks; Sony PRS-T1	If there's no proper legal offer, people will pirate. Thanks captain obvious.

06-10-2015, 03:47 AM	#4
HarryT eBook Enthusiast Posts: 85,560 Karma: 93980341 Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: UK Device: Kindle Oasis 2, iPad Pro 10.5", iPhone 6	This is a rather misleading headline. Geoblocking has nothing to do with copyright law - it's a contractual issue concerning the markets that the distributor has purchased the right to distribute the material into.

06-10-2015, 07:07 AM	#15
darryl Wizard Posts: 3,108 Karma: 60231510 Join Date: Nov 2011 Location: Australia Device: Kobo Aura H2O, Kindle Oasis, Huwei Ascend Mate 7	Sometimes I think that Harry is the only honest person here, at least by his own rigorous standards. Personally, I think geographic restrictions are an abomination for digital products, and I have no moral qualms about avoiding them. I also believe that intellectual propery laws have become very bad laws. In most countries they have lost any semblance of balance or fairness, and are viewed by many as either a laughing stock or simply irrelevant. No matter how often it is repeated, intellectual property is not "property" in the sense of tangible property like land. Nor is it appropriate for legislation to try to make it so. Modern competition policy takes the view that monopolies are bad. When laws grant a statutory monopoly, it is a privilege accorded to the grantee. The theory is that the harm to the public of granting the monopoly is more than offset by the greater public good. Unfortunately, with Copyright in particular, this has long ceased to be the case. The rights of a copyright holder should not be determined by analogy with tangible property like land. Rights given should be balanced so as to minimise the harm caused by the monopoly. They should be for a far more limited time. They should reflect the reality of todays market. Geographic restrictions should be outlawed, as should geographic price discrimination. This simply acknowledges the reality of the internet and the resulting single market. Arguably creators should, for their own protection, not be allowed to completely alienate their copyrights or even licence them for extremely long terms. The maxim that two or more wrongs don't make a right is of course correct. However, it is not realistic to expect that human nature sits easily or at all with allowing all sorts of depredations on the part of, for instance, large publishers, who then hide behind the rigidity of the often draconian laws they have themselves procured, all the time shouting that they have the high moral ground. Whilst it is clearly wrong to pirate a copyrighted work for many reasons, no matter how deplorable the copyright holders conduct may have been, my sympathy is reserved for the actual authors who do not get paid. I have none for the publishers. Finally, I should add that these laws exist, they are the law, and I don't want to encourage others to break them. We should do what we can, legally, to change them. Because they are very bad laws.