Which format is best for long-term storage? - Page 4

eschwartz · 07-28-2014, 03:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Katsunami

I can install Debian Stable, update it to it's latest point including the latest kernel fairly easily, but then the hoop-jumping begins to get newer versions of the desktop environment, applications, and so on. To be honest, I think it's %^#%^ that the operating system and applications can't be updated separately without going through great trouble. IMHO, it defeats the purpose of modularity.

Ah well... that's another topic. Maybe I should post about it in the rant thread.

That is a rant about debian and their not keeping up to date, though. And the obvious solution is to become the project maintainer and get it updated.

DE is a big part of the OS, so it's hardly surprising hoops are required -- unless someone does it for you. now, applications you can sometimes find as standalone binaries, depending on the maintainer.

PPAs often have the updated version.

Personally, I am running Arch Linux, and the updates are pretty darn fast. Bleeding edge distro and all... plus I don't ever need to do a dist-upgrade. (Instead I have to do magic with every pacman -Syu.

)

eschwartz · 07-28-2014, 04:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JSWolf

Yes there is a need and a very good reason. ePub is based on a ZIP and XML I don't think these two things will go away. So in the future, you will be able to open the ZIP container and extract the files. Thus, you will have access to the eBook. When the day comes that Calibre is no longer supported and Python 2.x no longer runs on your latest computer, then there no longer such access to other formats such as Mobipocket or AZW3. ePub is the only eBook format that has a chance to survive in the future in terms of being able to get at the content held within.

I cannot say what's going to happen in the future, but I do think ePub has the best chance of being able to get the book out of the container it's in.

I highly doubt that calibre will no stop being supported for the foreseeable future. And why should python2 no longer run?

Katsunami · 07-28-2014, 04:55 PM

Python2 is deemed legacy since 3.0 came out, and they are not compatible. At some point, support for Python2 (I.e. Keeping it running on newer systems) will cease. I hope Calibre will has been ported to Python3 by that time.

eschwartz · 07-28-2014, 05:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Katsunami

Python2 is deemed legacy since 3.0 came out, and they are not compatible. At some point, support for Python2 (I.e. Keeping it running on newer systems) will cease. I hope Calibre will has been ported to Python3 by that time.

You mean they will strip the compiled binaries from the repos and stuff. You will still be able to build it yourself, and standalone binaries which bundle python2 with all dependencies (few) will continue to work.

And so will py2exe (windows) apps and so will python frozen (linux) apps -- which is exactly what Kovid does to distribute calibre. calibre on ANY platform does not need python installed (and on Windows it probably isn't, anyway).

And yeah, python2 will officially be unsupported once all or at least most of the modules have been ported to python3, since python2 has been maintained purely on the grounds that python3 doesn't fully replace it due to the wealth of still-unported modules -- which is also the only reason why Kovid hasn't ported calibre to python3.

pidgeon92 · 07-28-2014, 06:21 PM

I think I'll be obsolete long before my ebooks.

eschwartz · 07-28-2014, 06:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pidgeon92

I think I'll be obsolete long before my ebooks.

A good perspective!

Sweetpea · 07-29-2014, 01:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by eschwartz

You mean they will strip the compiled binaries from the repos and stuff. You will still be able to build it yourself, and standalone binaries which bundle python2 with all dependencies (few) will continue to work.

Yes, I'll tell my mother: You can build it yourself! And how will you build it, if you don't have the tools? If a version gets discarded, don't you think the tools will get discarded as well?

And there are now plenty of OS's that are used by a very large group of people that are not supported by Calibre. I know people who no longer own a windows/linux/MacOS machine, but only an Android, Ios, or RT tablet. I haven't seen a Calibre version for those OS's... And they've been around for a while already.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JSWolf

Yes there is a need and a very good reason. ePub is based on a ZIP and XML I don't think these two things will go away. So in the future, you will be able to open the ZIP container and extract the files.

That's why I don't even zip it... I simply store the HTML, images and all other things required to build an epub out of my folder, but the last step, zipping, I skip. (Not so much for keepsake, but rather to make editing easier, no need to open the zipped file and edit the sources. Calibre makes a mess out of my sources so I never use Calibre to edit my files...)

eschwartz · 07-29-2014, 02:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sweetpea

Yes, I'll tell my mother: You can build it yourself! And how will you build it, if you don't have the tools? If a version gets discarded, don't you think the tools will get discarded as well?

And there are now plenty of OS's that are used by a very large group of people that are not supported by Calibre. I know people who no longer own a windows/linux/MacOS machine, but only an Android, Ios, or RT tablet. I haven't seen a Calibre version for those OS's... And they've been around for a while already.

Why does your mother need to build python2 for linux? And if she were using linux, wouldn't she know this stuff?

Now, calibre might be wanted/needed, but as I said in the second part of the post you partially quoted, Kovid already did that build for you (it's how he distributes it in the first place) and that will still be around. If his website goes down, there are still several mirrors. Like sourceforge, or googlecode (hasn't been updated since Kovid ditched it around 0.9.36).

As far as tablets go -- that is a rather unfair objection. How will you edit an EPUB on them, either?

jackie_w · 07-29-2014, 10:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JSWolf

Yes there is a need and a very good reason. ePub is based on a ZIP and XML I don't think these two things will go away. So in the future, you will be able to open the ZIP container and extract the files. Thus, you will have access to the eBook. When the day comes that Calibre is no longer supported and Python 2.x no longer runs on your latest computer, then there no longer such access to other formats such as Mobipocket or AZW3. ePub is the only eBook format that has a chance to survive in the future in terms of being able to get at the content held within.

I cannot say what's going to happen in the future, but I do think ePub has the best chance of being able to get the book out of the container it's in.

I agree. I'd rather put my long-term faith in the ubiquitous unzipper software needed to unpack epub HTML/images content than in someone continuing to support the mobi/azw unpacking utility required to extract similar content from Amazon's undocumented propriety formats.

Tarana · 07-29-2014, 11:10 AM

I archive in both epub and mobi. I leave PDFs in their original form (most are craft or cookbooks which work better in pdf form anyway). Makes it easier on my family members since I am the keeper of the elibrary and we have both epub and mobi units. I have a backup on an external drive and a duplicate on a flash drive at a sibling's home.

I have no doubt that if either of these formats become obsolete, there will be some conversion available.

j.p.s · 07-29-2014, 11:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by eschwartz

And if she were using linux, wouldn't she know this stuff?

Not necessarily, or even likely.

theducks · 07-29-2014, 11:42 AM

There is no 'perfect' storage device (or location).

Writable Optical Media is not the best as the internal dyes can deteriorate over time.

Rotating drives (or their electronics) can fail in long term storage (lack of use)
Use Alternate media Redundancy and off site storage of a COPY (Think Fire/Flood/Theft).

A climate controlled environment is also important. Not too Hot or not too Cold (near or below freezing).

HarryT · 07-29-2014, 12:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by theducks

There is no 'perfect' storage device (or location).

Stone tablets are pretty good. A proven track record of 5000+ years of data retention.

eschwartz · 07-29-2014, 03:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HarryT

Stone tablets are pretty good. A proven track record of 5000+ years of data retention.

Excellent idea. Excuse me while I write all my important info to stone.

j.p.s · 07-29-2014, 03:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HarryT

Stone tablets are pretty good. A proven track record of 5000+ years of data retention.

And the mass, volume, time, and expense to store 1 megabyte would be?

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07-28-2014, 04:55 PM	#48
Katsunami Grand Sorcerer Posts: 6,111 Karma: 34000001 Join Date: Mar 2008 Device: KPW1, KA1	Python2 is deemed legacy since 3.0 came out, and they are not compatible. At some point, support for Python2 (I.e. Keeping it running on newer systems) will cease. I hope Calibre will has been ported to Python3 by that time.

07-28-2014, 06:21 PM	#50
pidgeon92 Wizard Posts: 3,144 Karma: 8426142 Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Chicago, IL Device: Kindle PW2, Kindle Voyage, Kindle DXG, Boox M90, Kobo Aura HD	I think I'll be obsolete long before my ebooks.

07-29-2014, 11:10 AM	#55
Tarana Wizard Posts: 4,061 Karma: 38840460 Join Date: Sep 2012 Location: Minneapolis Device: PWSE, Voyage, K3, HDX, KBasic 7 & 8, Nook Glo3, Echos, Nanos	I archive in both epub and mobi. I leave PDFs in their original form (most are craft or cookbooks which work better in pdf form anyway). Makes it easier on my family members since I am the keeper of the elibrary and we have both epub and mobi units. I have a backup on an external drive and a duplicate on a flash drive at a sibling's home. I have no doubt that if either of these formats become obsolete, there will be some conversion available.

07-29-2014, 11:42 AM	#57
theducks Well trained by Cats Posts: 31,249 Karma: 61360164 Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: The Central Coast of California Device: Kobo Libra2,Kobo Aura2v1, K4NT(Fixed: New Bat.), Galaxy Tab A	There is no 'perfect' storage device (or location). Writable Optical Media is not the best as the internal dyes can deteriorate over time. Rotating drives (or their electronics) can fail in long term storage (lack of use) Use Alternate media Redundancy and off site storage of a COPY (Think Fire/Flood/Theft). A climate controlled environment is also important. Not too Hot or not too Cold (near or below freezing).