Surface Pro 3

[Prestidigitweeze]

It's a sign of my failing vision that I've been reading what seemed to be passionate arguments over the price of accessories for Scarface Pro 3, which is either an elite member of a postmodern criminal dynasty or a sequel to a game in which one learns to be very efficient at destroying one's fictional life with cocaine, low impulse control and doomed relationships with misterogynists. I'd love to know exactly what that expensive keyboard stand is for.

[mgmueller]

Originally Posted by Prestidigitweeze

It's a sign of my failing vision that I've been reading what seemed to be passionate arguments over the price of accessories for Scarface Pro 3, which is either an elite member of a postmodern criminal dynasty or a sequel to a game in which one learns to be very efficient at destroying one's fictional life with cocaine, low impulse control and doomed relationships with misterogynists. I'd love to know exactly what that expensive keyboard stand is for.

I really don't get the entire discussion!
First of all, the Type and Touch covers are optional, one can do entirely without or buy some bluetooth keyboard instead.
Last but not least: Common bluetooth keyboards are in the range of € 100, like this one: http://www.logitech.com/de-de/produc...iphone?crid=26
Covers, like the smart covers from Apple, are in the range of € 50.
So for € 129 I can have a highly advanced keyboard plus smart cover.
What's the problem about the price then?
And even if it's, let's say, € 29 overpriced: What's € 29 after one has bough a > € 700 tablet?

As a rule of thumb, I normally spend at least the same amount in the initial month for apps and accessories as the original invest. That's often not € 29, not even € 229, but more closely to € 529 or something like that...

[mgmueller]

Originally Posted by WillysJeepMan

...$130 is PREMIUM for a mobile keyboard...

But you get a mobile keyboard PLUS an iPad-like Smart Cover, which on its own would be worth € 50 to € 70.

[Kumabjorn]

Originally Posted by mgmueller

I really don't get the entire discussion!
First of all, the Type and Touch covers are optional, one can do entirely without or buy some bluetooth keyboard instead.
Last but not least: Common bluetooth keyboards are in the range of € 100, like this one: http://www.logitech.com/de-de/produc...iphone?crid=26
Covers, like the smart covers from Apple, are in the range of € 50.
So for € 129 I can have a highly advanced keyboard plus smart cover.
What's the problem about the price then?
And even if it's, let's say, € 29 overpriced: What's € 29 after one has bough a > € 700 tablet?

As a rule of thumb, I normally spend at least the same amount in the initial month for apps and accessories as the original invest. That's often not € 29, not even € 229, but more closely to € 529 or something like that...

You should be aware that pricing for peripherals, accessories and such differ widely between Europe and the U.S. Basically we subsidize their excesses. The Asian makers set the prices low in the U.S. to get a foothold, and then try to regain those loses by jacking up prices in Europe. An €80 keyboard is easily $40 in the U.S.

[mgmueller]

Originally Posted by Kumabjorn

You should be aware that pricing for peripherals, accessories and such differ widely between Europe and the U.S. Basically we subsidize their excesses. The Asian makers set the prices low in the U.S. to get a foothold, and then try to regain those loses by jacking up prices in Europe. An €80 keyboard is easily $40 in the U.S.

True.
Still:
iPad Air Smart Cover: http://store.apple.com/us/product/MF...r+smart+covers = $ 39

Apple Wireless Keyboard: http://store.apple.com/us/product/MC...board?fnode=3e = $ 69

Logitech Keyboard: http://store.apple.com/us/product/HB...le-tv?fnode=3e = $ 99

Surface Keyboard: http://www.microsoftstore.com/store/...Pro-Type-Cover = $ 129

It's the same as in Euro, only on a lower scale.
If I buy any combo of cover and keyboard, I end up between $ 108 and $ 138++.
That's exactly the price for the solution from Microsoft.
And I haven't seen a single ad, that says you have to have the Microsoft keyboard. If one is using a bluetooth solution with iPad today, same can be done with Surface.

[Kumabjorn]

I wasn't suggesting that at all. I Think the Surface Type Cover, especially the new one for SP3, is a clever engineering solution since it offers a dual solution. But, considering the material used and where it is produced I'd say that $99 is a fair price with a healthy margin for Microsoft. I Think a lot of people see Microsoft's pricing strategy as greedy. And I also Think that if one is to continually make comparisons to a MacBook Air then the i5 model with 256 GB SSD and 8GB RAM and the price of the keyboard is the fair comparison. In that light it isn't quite as inexpensive as the Microsoft team wants us to Believe when they bring forth the i3 as a keyboardless tablet.

[mgmueller]

Originally Posted by Kumabjorn

...And I also Think that if one is to continually make comparisons to a MacBook Air then the i5 model with 256 GB SSD and 8GB RAM and the price of the keyboard is the fair comparison...

I'm taking the prices in Euro again, but in Dollars it's the same ratio.
MacBook Air 13" i5 256GB/4GB = € 1199
Surface Pro 3 i5 256GB/8GB = € 1299 + € 129 for the cover.
Given the 4GB difference plus the touchscreen, to me those prices seem perfectly in line, even slightly in favor of Surface Pro 3.

Originally Posted by Kumabjorn

...I Think the Surface Type Cover, especially the new one for SP3, is a clever engineering solution since it offers a dual solution. But, considering the material used and where it is produced I'd say that $99 is a fair price with a healthy margin for Microsoft. I Think a lot of people see Microsoft's pricing strategy as greedy...

Admittedly, I didn't bother to check for the manufacturing costs of the cover. I don't care anyway. One of my former employers did have Gross Margins on their hardware in the excess of 60%. Still, they had been close to bankruptcy. I find teardowns such as "iPad components are worth the amount of X" utter nonsense. That's basically neglecting the difference between Gross Margin and EBIT, not considering R&D, SAG and the likes. No external source will have the slightest idea about the "real" costs and even internally only a few dozen people will have all the facts.
Maybe Microsoft could sell the cover for 30% less and still be profitable?
Maybe even with that price they barely make break even?

Some say, the cover should be included for free. Given the comparison above (MBA for 1199 vs. Surface Pro 3 for 1299) I don't think that's a fair or realistic demand.

Some say, the cover should be 30% cheaper.
What about the € 80 for the iPad Smart Case for example? What about the € 80 for my Logitech Ultrathin Keyboard?
I've bought a fantastic protective foil for my Dell Venue 8 Pro for a meager € 5 and a totally crappy one for € 20. Did the € 20 one have 80% Gross Margins? Or do they simply sell in smaller quantities?

I don't think, Microsoft is any "worse" or "better" or more or less "greedy" than the other ones. But at least they offer a solution that's working fine for me. Would it not be working, even half the price would be too much. Since it's working fine, I really don't bother about +/- 25% or something like that, even more though as the price seems absolutely in line with the comparisons I've made...

BTW: I've bought the Google Chromebook Pixel one year ago for € 1300. The specs had been great, but it definitely is less capable than MacBook Air or Surface Pro 3, given the limitations of the OS. But this wasn't my base of comparison, it still was worth the price to me because it's uniqueness. When this uniqueness didn't last and I didn't find workable usage pattern, I've sold it...

[Kumabjorn]

I'm not disputing your claims, and you are absolutely correct, no one except a few people on the inside knows about the cost. Those are the realities. I'm talking more about the perception. People compare things. Can this do more, faster or better for less money? I would like the SP3 to succeed because I think Microsoft has come up with something that is close to brilliant from an engineering viewpoint.
But if you look at almost all the American reviews, Europeans hasn't had an opportunity to get their hands on it yet, they make constant comparisons to the MacBook Air. Some are favorable, others less so. And, since Panay himself did those comparisons at the presentation, that is a fair journalistic prerogative. Once that is on the table, price will also be part of that equation, and this is the one area, at least in my opinion, where Microsoft comes up short. Traditionally Apple products have always been the ones with premium pricing, not the other way around.

I'm willing to bet €10 that on June 15th or perhaps 19th, Apple will announce a $200 price reduction for the MBA. It is starting to show that it is a different company under Cook than it was under Jobs.

[Penforhire]

I spent some time at a MS retail store playing with the Pro 3 this weekend. I don't normally trust on-line reviews but most of them read about the same as my own impressions.

Pen sensitivity is better than I expected (as a long-time Wacom tablet user). However I especially dislike how the (relatively expensive and unique) pen is carried around in a loop of material on the type cover. Looks/feels really cheesy and I've read of pens already slipping out of it. I also really wanted to flip the pen over to use the "eraser" rather than press a side button (just habit).

The type cover has better stroke than expected and the track pad is better than the last one but the combination is still not something I would look forward to spending a whole day with. A separate BT keyboard and mouse would solve that at most work locations though while still allowing a more portable type cover-only package.

Love the variable-adjust kick stand, screen aspect ratio, and screen vibrancy/sharpness. The extra fold that attached along the bottom of the screen really does help rigidity on a table.

Weight is decent (without the charger) and it does feel reasonably good in-hand. At the weights we are talking about, removing the type cover felt much better in "tablet mode" than just folding it over.

If (when) MS revises MS Office applications for better touch control it would really help sell this device. I read somewhere that change is coming.

As someone who lugs an iPad and 13" MacBook Air around the world, they really have my interest with this version. What would seal the deal for me? A 1.25 lb-ish sheet-type external battery (maybe a type cover-with-battery) rather than having to use a more-common chunky external battery pack. Or maybe another solid 3 hours of built-in battery life instead. We are talking about replacing the combination of two long-lived devices, each with their own batteries.

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by Penforhire

However I especially dislike how the (relatively expensive and unique) pen is carried around in a loop of material on the type cover. Looks/feels really cheesy and I've read of pens already slipping out of it.

It can't be any worse than the magnetic attachment on the Surface 1/2, where it falls off with the slightest of brushes against anything.

Does the charger on the Surface 3 use the same magnetic attachment as on the earlier devices?

[Kumabjorn]

No it is inserted and snaps to on the inside and the charger is also a Thunderbolt port to the new docking station.

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by Kumabjorn

No it is inserted and snaps to on the inside and the charger is also a Thunderbolt port to the new docking station.

Drat - that's a nuisance. Means buying another charger if I buy a Surface 3.

[Kumabjorn]

Charger is included, and I think it will only be a short while before some Chinese supplier offers an adapter. The concept is similar.

[wodin]

I'm thinking that I really NEED one of these. I’m a long time Livescribe smart pen user, but I’m getting really fed up with Livescribe. The display on yet another $200 pen is beginning to fade and it’s not yet a whole year old! If the SP3 pen interface is at all usable, and OneNote can integrate audio to ink I might just have to drop the hammer.

Trouble is I just dropped a couple of grand on vet bills for two dogs so ...

[Hitch]

Originally Posted by HarryT

Drat - that's a nuisance. Means buying another charger if I buy a Surface 3.

I'm seriously considering a new route. Not sure what, yet, but I'm plugged-out. I plug, unplug, re-plug, etc., chargers so many times a day I could probably do it blindfolded. It's ridiculous. Not sure what my "new route" will be, but, man, enough's enough.

Hitch