Baen Free CD's downloads

[crich70]

The thing is that once something is on the net. It's there virtually forever. I can't guess how many 1000's of people every day downloaded the CD zips or iso files from the 5th Imperium before Ms. Bujold made her complaint. And it was up there for years and years. More than enough time for millions of copies of each to be made. The horse not only walked out before the barn door was closed but he probably set up additional stalls in other stables all over cyberspace.

[eschwartz]

Originally Posted by PurpleStar

It doesn't say Simultaneous Device Usage: Unlimited, so I just assume it has DRM. No way to really tell, though for sure.

It's very easy. Download it fresh from Amazon MYK and try to open it with any MOBI/AZW3 reader. calibre can read both.

Don't import it if you have the plugin, don't run DeDRM.bat on it. Just open with ebook-viewer.exe and it will either open the book (it doesn't have DRM) or fail and tell you it has DRM.

[calvin-c]

Originally Posted by crich70

The thing is that once something is on the net. It's there virtually forever. I can't guess how many 1000's of people every day downloaded the CD zips or iso files from the 5th Imperium before Ms. Bujold made her complaint. And it was up there for years and years. More than enough time for millions of copies of each to be made. The horse not only walked out before the barn door was closed but he probably set up additional stalls in other stables all over cyberspace.

The problem I have with this is that it seems to condone those who continue to post her books for downloading. Maybe I'm misreading things. It's like saying that since you can't stop someone from stealing your car it's all right for them to do so. (Note: Analogies are slippery. If you disagree with the analogy that's fine.)

[theducks]

The insane thing about the 'Giving away her Life's Work' statement, was even with the CD publicly available... (and assuming they did not have any of them)

What percentage of the potential customer base bothered to locate and download it?
What percentage of those are hoarders that will never read 1 book out of all those?

For me, it was an easy way to transform my DTB into a more portable format. I still have crates of books in the storage room.

[jgaiser]

Originally Posted by calvin-c

The problem I have with this is that it seems to condone those who continuIt's like saying that since you can't stop someone from stealing your car it's all right for them to do so. (Note: Analogies are slippery. If you disagree with the analogy that's fine.)

Very, very slippery.

It's like saying since you can't stop someone from stealing a copy of your car, it's all right for them to do so.

I don't condone pirating. I don't pirate. But, the CD image I acquired of Cyroburn states:

What’s the catch? This disk and its contents may be copied and shared, but NOT sold. All commercial rights are reserved. That’s it.

Ms. Bujold doesn't believe it says what it does say. I, on the other hand, understand copy and share and I would have no guilt in doing either for these files.

[crich70]

Originally Posted by calvin-c

The problem I have with this is that it seems to condone those who continue to post her books for downloading. Maybe I'm misreading things. It's like saying that since you can't stop someone from stealing your car it's all right for them to do so. (Note: Analogies are slippery. If you disagree with the analogy that's fine.)

I'm not saying that it's right or wrong. Just that once it's up on the web anywhere it's almost impossible to do away with. I don't recall if Baen had a link to the 5th imperium or not but if they did then someone had to have known they were there. And it's possible that the original poster did ask permission (to make sure there wouldn't be any problem) before posting them. And if so I'd think Baen probably did have some communication with the authors about it. Certainly Ms. Bujold exercised her right to ask her ebooks be removed from the cd files so she knew (at some point) of their existence.

[fjtorres]

Originally Posted by crich70

I'm not saying that it's right or wrong. Just that once it's up on the web anywhere it's almost impossible to do away with. I don't recall if Baen had a link to the 5th imperium or not but if they did then someone had to have known they were there. And it's possible that the original poster did ask permission (to make sure there wouldn't be any problem) before posting them.

Fifth Imperium was, and is, authorized to distribute the CDs.
And they were reauthorized, as it were, when BAEN added Kindle store distribution and asked that the web-searchable versions be removed.
BAEN wants the images out there and Fifth Imperium hosting them saves them bandwidth costs.

[Katsunami]

I don't know when Baen stopped doing these CD's. Somewhere in 2009, 2010? That was a time in which e-reading really exploded. Possibly, it was no problem having the CD's distributed before, because very few people would actually read the digital versions of the books back then.

After e-readers got onto the scene, and Calibre became mature enough to convert books almost perfectly from one format to another, suddenly the CD's might be a problem...

[AnemicOak]

Originally Posted by Katsunami

I don't know when Baen stopped doing these CD's.

The last CD's were Invasion which was March of 2011 and Cryoburn which was October of 2010.

[theducks]

Jim Baen was a very astute man. He understood the marketing benefit derived from the Free Library (and to some extent, CD's).
Like a drug dealer, give a few free samples and you get them hooked

I know that the free Library sucked me into some series that I probably would not have bought into otherwise.
Hmmm
1 free book, 6 paid books or No books. I wonder?

[Hrafn]

Originally Posted by calvin-c

The problem I have with this is that it seems to condone those who continue to post her books for downloading. Maybe I'm misreading things. It's like saying that since you can't stop someone from stealing your car it's all right for them to do so. (Note: Analogies are slippery. If you disagree with the analogy that's fine.)

The problem I have with calvin-c's hyperventilating on this topic is that as far as I can see (although IANAL, but have a bit of background in Contract Law) Bujold had no legal basis for her demand. Failure to get one's head around the implications (that it would allow copies of copies, etc) of a contract's terms does not invalidate a contract (let alone the license granted by the contract counterparty), and even if it did, it would only do so after a legal determination (which AFAIK has not been forthcoming) on the issue.

Those sites that took down the Bujold CD did so purely voluntarily, and in spite of Bujold's rude and libelous attacks on them.

I'm a fan of Bujold's works, though not of her manners or ignorance of contract and copyright law.

Addendum: I had previously purchased all her works through to A Civil Campaign in DT, and have purchased her two non-CD works (Memory & CVA) through Baen ebooks, so have no real compunction at keeping my CD copy for the rest (as I am doing so under a good faith belief that there exists a legitimate license permitting me to have this copy).

Further addendum: multiple sources confirm that a "[u]nilateral mistake does not offer sufficient grounds for recession or renegotiation" of a contract.

[calvin-c]

Originally Posted by crich70

I'm not saying that it's right or wrong. Just that once it's up on the web anywhere it's almost impossible to do away with. I don't recall if Baen had a link to the 5th imperium or not but if they did then someone had to have known they were there. And it's possible that the original poster did ask permission (to make sure there wouldn't be any problem) before posting them. And if so I'd think Baen probably did have some communication with the authors about it. Certainly Ms. Bujold exercised her right to ask her ebooks be removed from the cd files so she knew (at some point) of their existence.

I think (and that's half interpreting what I can still find that Bujold said & the other half interpreting what I remember her saying) that her problem was with the web downloads, not the CD. She *may* have overlooked the 'copy & share' aspect of the CD but she most definitely didn't understand that they were also going to put it on the web-and that, I think, is what she most objected to.

5th Imperium was legal from Baen's viewpoint, the question was whether or not Baen made it clear to the authors they were allowing the CD's to be posted on the web. Without access to the actual negotiations I don't think we can determine whether they failed to make it clear or whether she simply changed her mind. I'm sure Baen would have bowed to her wishes either way simply to maintain as good a relationship as possible after a faux pas such as this.

Yes, I'm sure the poster asked permission-from Baen. Baen, not realizing that Bujold didn't want this, undoubtedly granted permission.

[Hrafn]

Originally Posted by calvin-c

5th Imperium was legal from Baen's viewpoint, the question was whether or not Baen made it clear to the authors they were allowing the CD's to be posted on the web.

No, this is not "the question". From a legal standpoint:

1. The 'mutual assent' (also referred to as "meeting of the minds") of the contract would only be broken due to a (material) mutual mistake (e.g. if Bujold thought that the "works" explicitly mentioned in the contract were her paintings, and Baen thought these "works" were her books), or for misrepresentation, fraud, undue influence, or the like. Author 'clarity' on the consequences of the license is simply not relevant.
2. The only "question" legally relevant to 5th Imperium (who were in no way a party to the negotiations between Baen and its authors) is whether their publication of the CDs on their site was covered by a relevant and valid license. As it was so covered, this publication was not "piracy" (as Bujold has fallaciously accused) and was not "stealing" (as calvin-c has fallaciously accused). It was in fact perfectly legal (from anybody's "viewpoint").

Lacking a legal leg to stand upon, Bujold was wholly reliant on the goodwill of 5th Imperium to remove her CD from their site, goodwill which she did her best to undermine with her absurd "piracy" accusation.

[calvin-c]

Originally Posted by Hrafn

No, this is not "the question". From a legal standpoint:

1. The 'mutual assent' (also referred to as "meeting of the minds") of the contract would only be broken due to a (material) mutual mistake (e.g. if Bujold thought that the "works" explicitly mentioned in the contract were her paintings, and Baen thought these "works" were her books), or for misrepresentation, fraud, undue influence, or the like. Author 'clarity' on the consequences of the license is simply not relevant.
2. The only "question" legally relevant to 5th Imperium (who were in no way a party to the negotiations between Baen and its authors) is whether their publication of the CDs on their site was covered by a relevant and valid license. As it was so covered, this publication was not "piracy" (as Bujold has fallaciously accused) and was not "stealing" (as calvin-c has fallaciously accused). It was in fact perfectly legal (from anybody's "viewpoint").

Lacking a legal leg to stand upon, Bujold was wholly reliant on the goodwill of 5th Imperium to remove her CD from their site, goodwill which she did her best to undermine with her absurd "piracy" accusation.

Re Point 1 I agree that it must be both material & mutual. The material misunderstanding was whether or not the distribution would be via CD only or via CD & Internet. Some might not consider that material. I do.

The mutual misunderstanding is that Baen apparently believed that Bujold understood what they were telling her. If they knew she didn't understand it then they committed fraud. I doubt that so I think there was misunderstanding on both sides.

As for the stealing, huh? The only people stealing Bujold's work are those who continue distributing it in defiance of her right to control the distribution. That's neither Baen nor 5th Imperium and I'm not sure how you think I said that. I'd only consider it stealing if they did that after being directly contacted by Bujold or her representatives (with cease & desist). Hearing 3rd hand that she doesn't want her works distributed wouldn't necessarily be believable so, in my opinion (FWIW) that wouldn't count as reasonable notice. (Re 5th Imperium I think contact by Baen would count as they were Bujold's representative at the time the CD was published.)

[Ntsimp]

Originally Posted by calvin-c

The only people stealing Bujold's work are those who continue distributing it in defiance of her right to control the distribution.

No no no! No take-backs. The copies of copies of copies from the CDs are legal to distribute, and will always be so, no matter what she says. 5th Imperium didn't take them down because of the law, but just to be nice.