China Telecom rolls out Tianyibook e-reader to compete against Kindle PW

[Mivo]

Originally Posted by tubemonkey

I choose neither. The US is very paranoid in the wake of 9/11 and has gone off the deep end. I'll leave it there, since this is easily a political topic and best discussed elsewhere.

Only the flip side, it isn't a bad way to give these intelligence folks some good book recommendations.

[Sregener]

Originally Posted by HansTWN

You must have read about the milk powder shortages everywhere. Problems like that exist because even Chinese consumers don't trust Chinese brands. This is just one example. And, given my long experience in China, neither do I.

Funny, I thought problems like that exist because they don't have a truly free market. In a free market, a shortage would lead to a massive increase in price, which would serve as a signal to producers to make more to scoop up as much profit as they could. As production ramped up, the demand would decrease and the price would eventually settle down. In a centrally-controlled economy, the price would be mandated and the signal to make more would never make it to the producers, who in fact wouldn't be permitted to make more than their required quota.

This is basic, classical economics, as taught by Ludwig von Mises in his 1922 work "Socialism" that explained exactly why socialism could not succeed, long before the Berlin wall toppled or the USSR dissolved.

[Kumabjorn]

Originally Posted by speakingtohe

I read somewhere that it was General MacArthur who set the Japanese on the road to quality.


Helen

It was actually a man by the name of Demming. American statistician whose work was ignored in the US, easier to become a prophet overseas I suppose.

[HansTWN]

Originally Posted by Mivo

What's really the difference, though? It's an invasion of privacy either way, and I wouldn't feel more comfortable if it's an American secret service spying on me instead of a Chinese one. (I live in neither country.) Not that I believe that anyone cares what we read, and presumably the Chinese reader will only allow access to approved books.

The difference is what they can and will do to you and for what. But that is a discussion for the politics and religion forum.

[crich70]

Originally Posted by Istvan diVega

Hardly.

The Japanese have always been sticklers for quality, probably more so than anybody. However, no nation can transition from being an insular, largely traditional, war-ravaged society to a mass-producer/exporter of high quality goods overnight. Japan accomplished that shift in an incredibly short time and if any American can be credited with helping them, it was professor W. Edwards Deming.

True. I do understand that they do have a strong work ethic in Japan. Everyone is expected to do their job. I also understand that when they have afternoon tea at work there is a definite order in who drinks 1st. First the president of the company then the man next in authority etc. and woe to he who jumps ahead in line. I've never heard of Mr. Deming before. I've also heard that China not only has the 'just good enough' mentality, but that they have the mentality of 'we don't need the rest of the world' in order to come up with things either. How accurate that is I don't know. I don't doubt that part of the difference in mentality between Japan and China is also environmental. China is part of the Asian continent while Japan is a group of islands. If you're limited in the amount of land you have you're more likely to be innovative more often (IMO).

[speakingtohe]

Originally Posted by Istvan diVega

Hardly.

The Japanese have always been sticklers for quality, probably more so than anybody. However, no nation can transition from being an insular, largely traditional, war-ravaged society to a mass-producer/exporter of high quality goods overnight. Japan accomplished that shift in an incredibly short time and if any American can be credited with helping them, it was professor W. Edwards Deming.

I believe if you read the article you cited you will find that W. Edwards Deming was working under the direction of Douglas MacArthur.

I am not an American by the way, just have seen it stated more than once that MacArthur was very much for helping the Japanese rebuild, as opposed to further punishing them.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occupation_of_Japan

Helen

[speakingtohe]

Originally Posted by Kumabjorn

It was actually a man by the name of Demming. American statistician whose work was ignored in the US, easier to become a prophet overseas I suppose.

Ahh, Deming was working under MacArthur I believe.

Perhaps he cold have accomplished the same thing if MacArthur had decided to give into the popular sentiment and punish the Japanese but I doubt it. Deming just didn't have that war hero status to pull it of AFAIK. I am sure he had the smarts to do it, but possibly he would not even have been there if MacArthur had not made it possible.

Helen

[Ankh]

Originally Posted by HansTWN

The difference between Japan back then and China now is the mentality. In Japan they wanted to "do it right 100%". In China they want to do it "just good enough".

I beg to disagree. The times are different.

When Japan was paving the way to economic heights, they competed with the quality goods made elsewhere. That quality comes with the price tag, and it seems that most of us are not ready to pay for it these days. We've gotten rich enough to buy cheap things.

The "dollar shop" mentality is our fault, IMHO.

[JAcheson]

The Japanese reputation for quality control is a very real thing. I once worked with the Japanese branch of Canon's color copier division. They really impressed me with their work ethic. They tested everything, every time.

China can produce equally high quality if it is demanded of them, but if left to their own devices, quality varies wildly.

[Istvan diVega]

The main reason cheap, Chinese goods are often crap, is obviously that they are cheap. That said, it's hardly a secret that Chinese manufacturing plants tends to require far more oversight for the output to be consistently up to spec than similar plants elsewhere. I know a few people who have various kinds of manufacturing done in China and they have all regaled me with amusing stories. Amusing for me who don't pay for the mishaps and wasted time, that is.

While I partly agree with Ankh, I don't think consumers should shoulder all the blame. After all, there's been a decades-long effort by basically everyone who wants to sell us something to make us buy more stuff and to buy it more often. The steadily declining quality of all manner of goods obviously greatly help in that regard. All in the cause of higher profit and screw the customer.

[speakingtohe]

Originally Posted by Ankh

I beg to disagree. The times are different.

When Japan was paving the way to economic heights, they competed with the quality goods made elsewhere. That quality comes with the price tag, and it seems that most of us are not ready to pay for it these days. We've gotten rich enough to buy cheap things.

The "dollar shop" mentality is our fault, IMHO.

Sad but true.

What I can't figure out is how the Chinese can be making any money of most Dollar Store items. Take a sugar container made of glass. Prior to 2008 these were sold to the Dollar store by a distributer for 37 cents and the price leapt about that time to 67 cents. How can a sugar container be manufactured, packed in boxes, shipped to a barge, barged across the ocean to Canada, be shipped to a distributer who probably marks them up 100% and then sells to the Dollar store for 67 cents. I know it can be done, because they do it.

Boggles my mind.

Helen

[Istvan diVega]

It's all about scale. When both manpower and raw materials are cheap, the product simple and it is being manufactured in sufficient volume, the cost per unit can get almost unimaginably low.

[speakingtohe]

Originally Posted by Istvan diVega

It's all about scale. When both manpower and raw materials are cheap, the product simple and it is being manufactured in sufficient volume, the cost per unit can get almost unimaginably low.

I understand that. But the Chinese people I have known in the import business (only two) are as capitalistic as they come. One of them told me that he became a landed immigrant because it was much better for doing business in China to be a foreign citizen. I asked him how money could be made on a 37 cent item, which was what his warehouse was selling to the dollar stores for at the time and go through four channels of distribution. He just kind of smirked. I asked him what the Chinese manufacture made, and he shrugged and said not my problem.

Anyway probably I have gone too far off topic.

Sorry

Helen

[HansTWN]

Originally Posted by Ankh

I beg to disagree. The times are different.

When Japan was paving the way to economic heights, they competed with the quality goods made elsewhere. That quality comes with the price tag, and it seems that most of us are not ready to pay for it these days. We've gotten rich enough to buy cheap things.

The "dollar shop" mentality is our fault, IMHO.

Yes and no. Western people are responsible for requesting ever cheaper goods, no doubt. But this cheap manufacturing tradition goes back 100s of years. And having lived in China and been to many factories you find out that the same attitude goes into most high priced goods. A higher price there doesn't mean you get better quality, just that more profit was made, and --- hopefully --- higher quality components have been used. Quite often no, if they think they can get away with it what is inside is not necessarily what is on the label. It cuts both ways, management that only cares about how much money is being made NOW and workers who take no pride in their work. People don't care what they make as long as they can sell it and, due to the great number of fakes, it is difficult to build a local brand with a good reputation. So when it has "Made in China" on it it must be cheap or it won't sell at all no matter how good it is. A vicious cycle.

And on the cheap side, a lot of things are being sold below cost just to keep the factores running when business is slow or because they got some "insider deal" on taxes, raw materials, and inspections (safety, environment, working conditions and hours, etc.). Those you won't get when working for international brands when the factory's being watched closely. But given the high wages and labor shortages in China the days of super cheap Chinese goods are numbered, anway.

As for Japan, they started out being cheap, but moved up very quickly.

[HansTWN]

Originally Posted by speakingtohe

I understand that. But the Chinese people I have known in the import business (only two) are as capitalistic as they come. One of them told me that he became a landed immigrant because it was much better for doing business in China to be a foreign citizen. I asked him how money could be made on a 37 cent item, which was what his warehouse was selling to the dollar stores for at the time and go through four channels of distribution. He just kind of smirked. I asked him what the Chinese manufacture made, and he shrugged and said not my problem.

Anyway probably I have gone too far off topic.

Sorry

Helen

The reason they were so cheap are the efficiencies. Suppliers were all nearby and order quanitities were huge. Workers were plentiful and worked hard. Those days are gone. As I have pointed out in my post above, many factories nowadays don't make money on that 37 cent item. They used to, but costs have gone up so much over the last few years, many low-end producers have closed down or moved to places with cheaper labor and land.

Moving up the food chain now is not necessarily a bad thing for China, few young people want to work in factories, anyway. But it is not an easy transition.

And in general I share your observations, Chinese people are the most full blooded capitalists in the world. Making money is more important than anything else. Which is why they got so far so quickly.