List of epub formatting "don'ts"

[dgatwood]

Originally Posted by JSWolf

I have to disagree with you here. 1.2 for a line-height can be just too large and make the lines look too spaced. A good line height depends on the font in use. Also, Kobo defaults to a line height of 1.3 which is even worse then 1.2. So you have to set a line height there or you get large gaps. I actually like Charis SIL set at a line height of 1.0 which is the default for most ADE versions (Desktop and Sony). I do remove line height when it makes the text too big or I adjust it if needed to make the lines closer.

Well, a line height of 1.2 is the absolute minimum that Kindles will allow, so in the more broad world of eBook publishing, using a smaller value is probably a bad idea.

[Man Eating Duck]

Originally Posted by Agama

Image attached shows a small sample from the ESV Bible, (as permitted in the copyright notice), with paragraph line-height:1.4em, and superscripts font-size:0.7em; vertical-align:0.25em. (Margin between paragraphs is 0.8em)

Maybe you'd like to try setting line-height:0 in the superscript span style, and reset the p line height? I had good results on a couple of our academic books which also contains a lot of superscript. You could probably also raise the superscript a little if you did that, it doesn't seem like it would overlap with the line above.

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by dgatwood

Well, a line height of 1.2 is the absolute minimum that Kindles will allow, so in the more broad world of eBook publishing, using a smaller value is probably a bad idea.

We are going backwards here. We have Kindles with 1.2 and Kobos with 1.3. Both which are too large. The Kobo can be fixed via CSS and the only way Kindles can be fixed is to edit the metrics of the font so it has a smaller line height. I've done that for the Kindle (for KF8) using Charis SIL and it worked very well.

It's disgraceful when a Reader and/or app has defaults that cannot easily be overridden and those defaults are obnoxious.

[dgatwood]

Originally Posted by JSWolf

We are going backwards here. We have Kindles with 1.2 and Kobos with 1.3. Both which are too large. The Kobo can be fixed via CSS and the only way Kindles can be fixed is to edit the metrics of the font so it has a smaller line height. I've done that for the Kindle (for KF8) using Charis SIL and it worked very well.

It's disgraceful when a Reader and/or app has defaults that cannot easily be overridden and those defaults are obnoxious.

Indeed. Lots of things the Kindle KF8 readers do are obnoxious. That particular one, though, is so badly done that fonts whose metrics specify a smaller-than-1.2 line height actually get forced up to a 1.2 line height, resulting in the layout of the content changing. To get a line height less than 1.2, AFAIK, the only thing you can really do is lie in your metrics and extend the ascenders and descenders past the specified limits.

So yes, no disagreement here. What Amazon has done with KF8 is broken. Badly. Embarrassingly.

[Agama]

Originally Posted by Man Eating Duck

Maybe you'd like to try setting line-height:0 in the superscript span style, and reset the p line height? I had good results on a couple of our academic books which also contains a lot of superscript. You could probably also raise the superscript a little if you did that, it doesn't seem like it would overlap with the line above.

Well that's rather neat: it worked a treat. Thanks for the suggestion. So now it appears there is no need for 1.4em line-heights after all.

[Man Eating Duck]

Originally Posted by Agama

Well that's rather neat: it worked a treat. Thanks for the suggestion. So now it appears there is no need for 1.4em line-heights after all.

Glad to hear it. I wasn't aware of that trick myself a while ago, and now I'll have to amend our entire backlog of epubs in order to be able to sleep at night

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by Agama

Well that's rather neat: it worked a treat. Thanks for the suggestion. So now it appears there is no need for 1.4em line-heights after all.

There never was a need for 1.4em. It's just too big and will always be too big.

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by dgatwood

Indeed. Lots of things the Kindle KF8 readers do are obnoxious. That particular one, though, is so badly done that fonts whose metrics specify a smaller-than-1.2 line height actually get forced up to a 1.2 line height, resulting in the layout of the content changing. To get a line height less than 1.2, AFAIK, the only thing you can really do is lie in your metrics and extend the ascenders and descenders past the specified limits.

So yes, no disagreement here. What Amazon has done with KF8 is broken. Badly. Embarrassingly.

So what else is broken with KF8 besides the line height?

[m00min]

Originally Posted by JSWolf

We are going backwards here. We have Kindles with 1.2 and Kobos with 1.3. Both which are too large. The Kobo can be fixed via CSS and the only way Kindles can be fixed is to edit the metrics of the font so it has a smaller line height. I've done that for the Kindle (for KF8) using Charis SIL and it worked very well.

As someone said earlier in this thread, 1.2 is pretty much a default or common setting for most fonts. For most people it will make the text more legible to be set to 1.2 rather than 1.0. The only time I'd consider using 1em for text is on titles or short bits of text (maybe links on websites). I think you're an edge case in preferring it for reading large quantities of text.

Originally Posted by JSWolf

It's disgraceful when a Reader and/or app has defaults that cannot easily be overridden and those defaults are obnoxious.

Definitely agree with this, I've just got myself a Kobo Mini and its driving me mad that I can't switch off the hyphenation without forcing it in the CSS.

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by m00min

As someone said earlier in this thread, 1.2 is pretty much a default or common setting for most fonts. For most people it will make the text more legible to be set to 1.2 rather than 1.0. The only time I'd consider using 1em for text is on titles or short bits of text (maybe links on websites). I think you're an edge case in preferring it for reading large quantities of text.

1.2em is too large a line height. It is not a default. 1em is actually the default (if there is one).

Don't use 1.2em. It's too big.

[Agama]

ADE and calibre viewer almost certainly use a default in the region of 1.2em for paragraph line-height. This is a very sensible value to use and ensures that letters with "descenders", (g p q y), don't bump into tall letters on the next line. 1.0em is definitely NOT the default for line-height on all readers.

Do use 1.2em, or 1.1em or even 1.0em, (though this one really is a bit tight), or simply leave it to default as the OP suggested, (and you'll get something in the region of 1.2em on ADE based readers.)

[Jellby]

Originally Posted by Agama

This is a very sensible value to use and ensures that letters with "descenders", (g p q y), don't bump into tall letters on the next line.

Unfortunately, that's very much font-dependent (meaning that for some fonts 1.2 will be "too much" and for others it will be "not enough"). It depends on how the different glyphs (letters) are drawn in the containing block. Some fonts have containing block very well adjusted to the glyph shapes, some fonts have lots of white space in the containing block, some fonts have large parts of the glyphs outside the containing block... There's no fixed solution for every font.

(see Figure 5-9 here)

[Toxaris]

I keep it on the value 'normal'. That way a good reader can decide for themselves.

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by Agama

ADE and calibre viewer almost certainly use a default in the region of 1.2em for paragraph line-height. This is a very sensible value to use and ensures that letters with "descenders", (g p q y), don't bump into tall letters on the next line. 1.0em is definitely NOT the default for line-height on all readers.

Do use 1.2em, or 1.1em or even 1.0em, (though this one really is a bit tight), or simply leave it to default as the OP suggested, (and you'll get something in the region of 1.2em on ADE based readers.)

Your assumption is very wrong. You do not get 1.2em on ADE based readers. Most are actually 1.0em and the Kobo is 1.3em. There are no ADE based readers that give a default of 1.2em that I know of. Desktop ADE is 1.0em. So if you do want a specific line height, you have to specify it. But please don't make it 1.2em or higher. Too big. 1.1em might be OK for most people.

[theducks]

Originally Posted by Jellby

Unfortunately, that's very much font-dependent (meaning that for some fonts 1.2 will be "too much" and for others it will be "not enough"). It depends on how the different glyphs (letters) are drawn in the containing block. Some fonts have containing block very well adjusted to the glyph shapes, some fonts have lots of white space in the containing block, some fonts have large parts of the glyphs outside the containing block... There's no fixed solution for every font.

(see Figure 5-9 here)

Agreed.
Most time I don't specify a line height.
In a few font cases, I have to specify 1.2 as the default space seems overly (screen) wasteful of space

The only other time I use it, is when I mix fonts on a line and the inherited space prevailes (probably due to bad coding on my part)