Tor/Forge Books Announces DRM-Free E-book Store

[taustin]

Originally Posted by ProfCrash

The reality is that Baen is not going to find a customer in me. I know about Baen. I have been to their website. I find it a pain in the butt and not worth the extra effort. If they had their books at Amazon, I might buy some of their books. But they don't so I don't bother looking.

People keep saying that, but if you go to Amazon and search for Baen in the Kindle store, you find over a hundred titles. They may not have everything in Amazon, but they do have books there. Really.

[stonetools]

Originally Posted by ProfCrash

The reality is that Baen is not going to find a customer in me. I know about Baen. I have been to their website. I find it a pain in the butt and not worth the extra effort. If they had their books at Amazon, I might buy some of their books. But they don't so I don't bother looking.

I have a feeling that I am closer to the majority than the minority on this type of thing. I want things easy. That means make the books available were I shop. I get that some folks think that they are better off with a more closed model, personally I think all that they are saying is that they do not want my business.

Of course, if you are right about that, then why bother with a seperate store- just sell through Amazon and the other stores.
That works fine-till one store becomes so dominant that they can tell you "Agree to sell us your books at our price and on our terms -or you won't sell anything!".
If you are are satisfied Amazon customer, that's not your problem. If you are a publisher, that's a life and death business dilemma.
Tor.com is one publisher's attempt to avoid this coming to pass. Other publishers have other projects going like this one. Stay tuned.

[crossi]

I love Baen. They have some of my favorite authors and I've bought a lot of books from them. But while I check Amazon's new books every day I might go to Baen's site once a month. Do you think they will offer their books on Amazon and at a discount on their site since they don't need to give Amazon a 30% cut? For 30% off I might search on Amazon but buy at Tor.

[ProfCrash]

Originally Posted by stonetools

Of course, if you are right about that, then why bother with a seperate store- just sell through Amazon and the other stores.
That works fine-till one store becomes so dominant that they can tell you "Agree to sell us your books at our price and on our terms -or you won't sell anything!".
If you are are satisfied Amazon customer, that's not your problem. If you are a publisher, that's a life and death business dilemma.
Tor.com is one publisher's attempt to avoid this coming to pass. Other publishers have other projects going like this one. Stay tuned.

The way to prevent a store from becoming dominant is to find a way of allowing competition. DRM free wholesale would allow BN, Kobo, Sony, and independent bookstores to try methods that might take people away from Amazon.

Kobo runs some really nice coupons, not on anything that I read, but they would be of interest to many an Amazon reader. Most Kindle users won't use them because they don't know about drm stripping and conversion. Remove the DRM and allow the various bookstores to sell DRM free EPub and Mobi. Then allow those coupons to be used on TOR books. Now people have an incentive to shop at Kobo. Either Amazon has to match all of Kobo's deals, which it could probably do, but at least it gives Kindle users an easier way to go and shop at Kobo.

I don't think that the DRM free Publisher store will work. Most ereader users are probably not fully aware of DRM. Those who are probably don't care because they shop at the store tied to their e-reader. Why bother shopping somewhere else to get something without DRM? It is an extra step. Maybe if the TOR store was 25% percent less expensive then Amazon but I am not sure that is allowable even under Agency Pricing. Since TOR would be the publisher, I am assuming that whatever price they sell the book for at their store would be a fair price to sell the book for at all other sites.

But if Amazon has to worry about matching deals from BN, Kobo, Smashwords, Baen, Sony, and a series of other independents life becomes more difficult for them and they might, just might, lose some business.

[stonetools]

Originally Posted by DiapDealer

I don't know of too many people who have ever claimed that file sharing will "somehow disappear" if/when DRM goes away. Rather... most proponents of DRM-free ebooks suggest that the volume of filesharing will remain consistent regardless of whether DRM is present or not. It's a cost of doing business that you simply cannot affect/change/reduce/alter without running the risk of pissing off some of your law-abiding customers.

However, on the current topic... I fully expect Tor's DRM-free store to fail. And then I expect it's failure to be trotted out as evidence that publishers responded to consumer cries for DRM-free books and then those same consumers wouldn't put their money where their mouth was.

I think that Macmillan wants Tor.com to suceed. They see it as a model for establishing a sales channel direct to the consumer . If Tor.com suceeeds, then Macmillan can go the full Monty and sell ALL its lines direct to consumer, without worrying that Amazon will say "Sell to us on our terms or we'll pull your BUY buttons!" Macmillan has already starred in that movie and while Amazon backed down then, Macmillan would rather not try that one on again.

Tor.com can succeed if it offer something the other book stores can't. I can't see it beating Amazon on price-Amazon subsidizes its prices from other revenue streams( according to most business analysts). The only other selling point is exclusivity.
Tor.com can say , " If you want to buy John Scalzi or Charles Stross, you have to come to our store." Of course, customers may not care all that much for those authors. We'll see.

[pdurrant]

Originally Posted by stonetools

Tor.com can succeed if it offer something the other book stores can't.

One thing is could offer is multiple formats for the same price. "Got a Kindle, but want a Kobo? No problem with DRM-free multiple format ebooks from TOR.com"


[EDIT: It's a good thing I'm not an advertisement copywriter...]

[stonetools]

Maybe if the TOR store was 25% percent less expensive then Amazon but I am not sure that is allowable even under Agency Pricing. Since TOR would be the publisher, I am assuming that whatever price they sell the book for at their store would be a fair price to sell the book for at all other sites.

Well, they are trying the "go DRM free, sell to all retailers" route too. I doubt this will work, since Amazon will probably stll undercut everyone on price.

Macmillan , as a non-settling publisher, has agency pricing, so they can set whatever price they want at Tor.com. They may not be able to undercut Amazon, though. (Amazon sells its books at a loss to draw customers to its website, according to most analysts).Also too, they wouldn't have to pay a cut to the retailer.
If they can undercut, then there is a reason to go to Tor.com.

[stonetools]

Originally Posted by pdurrant

One thing is could offer is multiple formats for the same price. "Got a Kindle, but want a Kobo? No problem with DRM-free multiple format ebooks from TOR.com"


[EDIT: It's a good thing I'm not an advertisement copywriter...]

You might want some dancing bears in that commercial.

[Kirtai]

Originally Posted by stonetools

I think that Stross and the anti DRM crowd have a rosy tinged view of the future, whereby if you eliminate DRM, somehow a healthy, competive and diverse marketplace will naturally bloom and the small retailers will somehow be able to compete against Amazon and the big retailers absent DRM lock-in. Bollocks, in my view, but there it is.

I think you've got it backwards. It's not "remove DRM=rosy future", it's "keep DRM=Amazon has them over a barrel".

The publishers are trying to get out of a hole they dug for themselves using DRM as their shovel.

[AnemicOak]

Originally Posted by stonetools

Macmillan , as a non-settling publisher, has agency pricing, so they can set whatever price they want at Tor.com.

The Agency deals currently in place do not allow one for a books to cost less at one seller over another. Macmillan says it's "this much" and everyone who sells Macmillan titles has to sell it for that price (or not sell it at all). Therefore Tor.com can't sell the books for any less than Tor sells them on Amazon, B&N, Kobo, etc.

They may not be able to undercut Amazon, though. (Amazon sells its books at a loss to draw customers to its website, according to most analysts).

With Agency pricing Amazon makes 30% just like every other retailer there is no selling at a loss involved.

Also too, they wouldn't have to pay a cut to the retailer.
If they can undercut, then there is a reason to go to Tor.com

True they wouldn't have to pay the 30%, but at least some of that cut will have to go back into the operation of the Tor store.

[Elfwreck]

Originally Posted by HarryT

Much as I respect Mr Stross's views, I strongly disagree with him about that. I don't think the typical punter is even aware of DRM. They buy from Amazon because of their great bookstore and customer service.

I'm somewhere in between. I think the average buyer is unaware of DRM, and remains only dimly aware of it when contemplating a new venue--but would have an easier time switching stores if they knew their books *could* be transfered. If people online said, "oh yeah, to transfer your Amazon buys to your Nook, do this: [download, install calibre, bulk upload, export to Nook]," that's still some steps, but it's a lot simpler than "um, it's *probably* legal to go visit App Alf's blog and then you install this program and these code snippets, and these other ones if you have K-for-PC in addition to the hardware, and...."

So: I think Stross is right; DRM locks are cutting into competitive diversity. I don't think eliminating DRM would be an insta-fix; I think it'll be a slow process of people gradually becoming aware they can change stores. And there's still plenty of reasons to stick with whatever store you're familiar with.

Originally Posted by cjr72

At the bottom of the article it's stated that "As previously announced, Tor Books expects to offer all of their books DRM-free through all retailers by the end of the July."

Oooh, does that include the Tor books at BaenEbooks? The ones they used to sell, and then got pulled when Macmillan freaked out about the lack of DRM? Mm, those PlanetBaen coupons would come in very handy.

[stonetools]

The Agency deals currently in place do not allow one for a books to cost less at one seller over another. Macmillan says it's "this much" and everyone who sells Macmillan titles has to sell it for that price (or not sell it at all). Therefore Tor.com can't sell the books for any less than Tor sells them on Amazon, B&N, Kobo, etc.

I had forgotten that.

Tor. com may therefore be able to undercut, since it would not have to pay the retailer's cut.

[maxiart]

Well, I like Tor. Certainly more than I do Amazon or even B&N... Depending on how they go about it, I might buy all my future books from them (or at least try to )

[stonetools]

Oooh, does that include the Tor books at BaenEbooks? The ones they used to sell, and then got pulled when Macmillan freaked out about the lack of DRM? Mm, those PlanetBaen coupons would come in very handy.

They may not be any good. Agency.

[Joykins]

Originally Posted by taustin

Lois McMaster Bujold's stuff is there in Amazon for Kindle, including pre-orders for her next Vorkosiverse book. Looks like they're in Barnes & Noble's nook store, too. So not, they're apparently not exclusive to Baen.

I'm guessing her rights reverted on the older ones, or she got them back, or Baen only had ebook rights to the omnibuses (Young Miles etc.) as I believe she self-published those versions available through the Kindle store. The next Vorkosiverse book is only offered in hardcover through Amazon, not in Kindle format.