Access to Knowledge: YEA or NAY

[howyoudoin]

I'm amused at how he ignores the points that rebutt his arguments, and instead tries to obfuscate the discussion with senseless piffle.

[wannabee]

Originally Posted by howyoudoin

I'm amused at how he ignores the points that rebutt his arguments, and instead tries to obfuscate the discussion with senseless piffle.

A politician, right out of the box. Just playing to the wrong audience.

[QuantumIguana]

Originally Posted by Giggleton

No not today's society, tomorrows society. Timebanks

That's nothing new, and it is certainly not the way economics will work in the future. People have been bartering labor for ages. I have seen certificates from decades ago which promised a certain amount of labor to the bearer.

These have very limited utility. The person's labor might be of no use to the bearer of the certificate. The barber's labor is of no use to a bald man. The certificate is of no use if you the bearer isn't near the laborer. If we live in the same town, the bearer might be able to exchange the certificate for labor, but if the certificate is from a laborer in Denver, it is of no use to someone in Chicago. Unless the bearer knows the laborer quite well, the bearer doesn't know the value of the bearer's labor, so there's no way to tell the value of the certificate. And finally, the laborer has a limited lifespan, and so does any potential value the certificate has, it declines in value with each passing moment.

What's next, wooden nickels?

[RDaneel54]

Originally Posted by Giggleton

What is this real world you speak of?

Everything outside of Tron.

[bill_mchale]

Originally Posted by RDaneel54

Everything outside of Tron.

We need to keep in mind tht Giggleton is making a key metaphysical error in his arguments. He is confusing the inability of individuals to clearly know everything objectively with the lack of an objective reality. By arguing this, he figures he can subvert or ignore ethical standards for his own benefit. It is kind of the modern version of the mistake that Raskolnikov made in Crime and Punishment.

--
Bill

[Giggleton]

Originally Posted by QuantumIguana

These have very limited utility. The person's labor might be of no use to the bearer of the certificate. The barber's labor is of no use to a bald man. The certificate is of no use if you the bearer isn't near the laborer. If we live in the same town, the bearer might be able to exchange the certificate for labor, but if the certificate is from a laborer in Denver, it is of no use to someone in Chicago. Unless the bearer knows the laborer quite well, the bearer doesn't know the value of the bearer's labor, so there's no way to tell the value of the certificate. And finally, the laborer has a limited lifespan, and so does any potential value the certificate has, it declines in value with each passing moment.

It seems that you are placing monetary values on people's time which is something that timebanks try to avoid.

Originally Posted by bill_mchale

We need to keep in mind that Giggleton is making a key metaphysical error in his arguments. He is confusing the inability of individuals to clearly know everything objectively with the lack of an objective reality. By arguing this, he figures he can subvert or ignore ethical standards for his own benefit. It is kind of the modern version of the mistake that Raskolnikov made in Crime and Punishment.

--
Bill

Sort of, except that reality is created by the collective subjective.

[RDaneel54]

Originally Posted by Giggleton

Sort of, except that reality is created by the collective subjective.

Kinda like the Borg?

[Giggleton]

Originally Posted by RDaneel54

Kinda like the Borg?

Sort of, I mean we all act and react to everything happening around us, this includes the actions of other people. So in a sense we are already the borg, our consciousness just tries to keep us unaware of this fact, I'm not exactly sure why.

[bill_mchale]

Originally Posted by Giggleton

It seems that you are placing monetary values on people's time which is something that timebanks try to avoid.



Sort of, except that reality is created by the collective subjective.

Nope. There was an objective reality that preceded us, and will follow us. At least unless Quantum Mechanics is even weirder than anyone has imagined.

Sort of, I mean we all act and react to everything happening around us, this includes the actions of other people. So in a sense we are already the borg, our consciousness just tries to keep us unaware of this fact, I'm not exactly sure why.

Our perception of reality may be subjective, but that does not mean reality itself is not objective. We act based on our perception, but only part of that perception is based on the actions of other people (and in some circumstances it might be only a very tiny bit).

--
Bill

[QuantumIguana]

Originally Posted by Giggleton

It seems that you are placing monetary values on people's time which is something that timebanks try to avoid.

They most certainly do not. Timebanks are unequivocably money. The only difference between them and other forms of money is the basis for the money. Money might be based on precious metals, or might be based on faith in the economy, or it might, as in the case of a time bank, be based on labor. But it is still money.

It is just money with very real weaknesses.

Sort of, except that reality is created by the collective subjective.

No it is not, reality remains reality regardless of what you think of it. At a certain atmospheric pressure, water boils at 100 degrees Celsius, regardless of what you want it to do.

[elcreative]

Originally Posted by howyoudoin

I'm amused at how he ignores the points that rebutt his arguments, and instead tries to obfuscate the discussion with senseless piffle.

I'm even more amused by people actually trying to have a rational discussion with someone who not only doesn't live in the same universe as the rest of us but doesn't even think and argue rationally... it's also a bit worrying when the big G can't actually distinguish between reality and fiction, maybe he'll notice if someone stops feeding him and reality intrudes...

[cjr72]

Originally Posted by elcreative

I'm even more amused by people actually trying to have a rational discussion with someone who not only doesn't live in the same universe as the rest of us but doesn't even think and argue rationally... it's also a bit worrying when the big G can't actually distinguish between reality and fiction, maybe he'll notice if someone stops feeding him and reality intrudes...

At this point I like to imagine Giggleton is an investment banker, reposed in his reading room in a smoking jacket with a brandy snifter, having a good chuckle at our responses to his posts.

[mrscoach]

I think I'm going to make my signature a quote my son got from somewhere. "I reject your reality and substitute it with my own." That keeps coming to mind when I read Giggle's posts. I almost put him on ignore, but find I laugh too much at his absurdity.

And I believe I brought up, several pages back, that societies have used some form of money from almost the beginning. It might have been beads, or shells, or bones, but a monetary system has been found in most ancient cultures. Just sayin'.

[RDaneel54]

Originally Posted by mrscoach

I think I'm going to make my signature a quote my son got from somewhere. "I reject your reality and substitute it with my own." That keeps coming to mind when I read Giggle's posts. I almost put him on ignore, but find I laugh too much at his absurdity.

And I believe I brought up, several pages back, that societies have used some form of money from almost the beginning. It might have been beads, or shells, or bones, but a monetary system has been found in most ancient cultures. Just sayin'.

The quote is from Adam Savage on the TV show Mythbusters.

[The Terminator]

Originally Posted by RDaneel54

The quote is from Adam Savage on the TV show Mythbusters.

Arg, beat me to it.

Are you going to use a Vacuum motor to pull your eyebrow off too?