Geographic restrictions - a different perspective

[Terisa de morgan]

Originally Posted by AlexBell

Sez who? I use services, I read books. In my opinion ebooks are books, not services.

In my opinion too, but not in the European law, at least. That's the reason for having a bigger VAT than books.

[Sweetpea]

Originally Posted by Terisa de morgan

In my opinion too, but not in the European law, at least. That's the reason for having a bigger VAT than books.

And the weirdest part: Electronic books are books as well! As long as they're in audio...

[bevdeforges]

Originally Posted by Sweetpea

The last pbooks I bought online were bought from an US based company... Simply because they're cheaper... And that's why it's an issue now. Why can I buy one version of a book and not the other from the same shop?

It gets weirder. Why can't I even buy electronic (English!) books from an UK based firm? I mean, I'm in Europe, and last I checked, the UK was in Europe... And it's not like our local publishers publish books in English...

Ah, now we're getting to some of the subtleties of the issue. It's not only a matter of the author's benefit, but also partly that of the publisher's convenience. Far easier to take in a tidy fee (plus future royalties) to allow a publisher in the UK to publish a book by an American author than to have to arrange to ship hard copy overseas.

But then, you have the governments getting in on the action, with the VAT and the fact that VAT is higher on e-books than on p-books definitely comes into play here, as do the various "literature as cultural item that needs protection" laws - and tend to make locally produced books much more expensive than imported ones.

At this point there are lots of vested interests in the current p-book based system. It could take a while for a uniquely e-book system to develop.

[Sweetpea]

Originally Posted by bevdeforges

Ah, now we're getting to some of the subtleties of the issue. It's not only a matter of the author's benefit, but also partly that of the publisher's convenience. Far easier to take in a tidy fee (plus future royalties) to allow a publisher in the UK to publish a book by an American author than to have to arrange to ship hard copy overseas.

But then, you have the governments getting in on the action, with the VAT and the fact that VAT is higher on e-books than on p-books definitely comes into play here, as do the various "literature as cultural item that needs protection" laws - and tend to make locally produced books much more expensive than imported ones.

At this point there are lots of vested interests in the current p-book based system. It could take a while for a uniquely e-book system to develop.

I know why the price in the US is lower... I know we pay 6% VAT on books and 19% on ebooks. But that still doesn't explain why I, from non-English European country can't buy ebooks from the US nor from the UK. It also doesn't explain why I, from a non-English European country can buy pbooks from the US and from the UK. I can (sort of, with a lot of mind stretching) understand why a UK person can't buy from the US and vice versa (sorry, Australia, I'm leaving you out of this now, saves me typing!) But why not from any other non-English speaking country where the book isn't published. I don't want a translated book, I want the English language book.

[CommonReader]

The situation within the EU is completely unacceptable and I hope that the Commission is going to come down on publishers and whoever else may be responsible like a ton of bricks. There are currently only two shops with a wide range of English ebooks available in Germany, Amazon and Kobo. The same problem exists for other languages, e.g. I have heard complaints by readers in Luxembourg that they couldn't buy any German ebooks.

[howyoudoin]

How are ebooks a service? Does the author personally recite his words for me when I buy one?

[Terisa de morgan]

Originally Posted by CommonReader

The situation within the EU is completely unacceptable and I hope that the Commission is going to come down on publishers and whoever else may be responsible like a ton of bricks.

The Commission? Laws about ebooks as service are dictated by the Commission, not the publishers, and this is the reason the publisher can use to claim geographical restrictions.

[Terisa de morgan]

Originally Posted by howyoudoin

How are ebooks a service? Does the author personally recite his words for me when I buy one?

Don't ask me, I'm not a lawyer so I don't understand

[CommonReader]

Originally Posted by Terisa de morgan

The Commission? Laws about ebooks as service are dictated by the Commission, not the publishers, and this is the reason the publisher can use to claim geographical restrictions.

The freedom to provide services throughout the common market is one of the basic freedoms of the EU.

[Krystl]

The service is PROVIDING the book/good. the GOOD is the book itself. Unfortunately, the law has not caught up to the digital age.

Simplified:
Owning = good
Leasing = service

We could argue the difference between owning and "leasing" a book--with DRM and the clouds etc. it gets very confusing and up for debate. Do you own the data or not? My opinion, of course is: I bought it, it's mine. However there have been enough cases of that not truly being the case (download it, I can do with it what I want). Protection yes, control yes, legal yes, right... hmmm...

The problems with copyright are legitimate, but consider i.e. the coding of dvds still prevalent today. Buy it where you will--it won't necessarily play on your dvd player.

"Basic freedom" WORLDWIDE is relative.

Some problems still have to be fought through legal channels.

[ficbot]

I understand how authors might say to themselves 'why shouldn't I get more money for the UK rights' for instance, but where it breaks down for me is who holds the ebook rights for the American living in China, for instance? In their rush to protect one hypothetical right over another, they are leaving money on the table from willing, paying customers who have no store which will sell to them.

[Terisa de morgan]

Originally Posted by CommonReader

The freedom to provide services throughout the common market is one of the basic freedoms of the EU.

I don't doubt it. I doubt on ebook classified as service, the way it is now.

[Sweetpea]

Originally Posted by CommonReader

The freedom to provide services throughout the common market is one of the basic freedoms of the EU.

And yet, in case of ebooks, that's not the case. Otherwise I'd be able to buy books from the UK (don't read German or French, so I don't go to those shops...)

[pwalker8]

Originally Posted by taustin

Huh? The Berne Convention dates back to 1886, though the US only formally signed on about a century later. Copyright laws do vary somewhat from country to country, yes, but virtually every country is a signatory now and has been for decades. The degree to which things vary hasn't changed much in 25 years. (And the LotR's debacle had little to do with variations in copyright law and much to do with the publisher, the British one, I think, screwing up.)

Prior to 1976, the US copyright was 28 years, plus the option of renewal for another 28 years, after it was life plus 50 which was done to conform to the Berne Convention. Most of the major US publishers pre-date that by quite a few years, Random House started in 1927, for example, MacMillan was started in 1843, Harper started in 1833. So the current publishing model predates the changes to the copyright laws by quite a long time and dates back to a time where it literally wasn't possible for the same publisher to publish books world wide.

[taustin]

Originally Posted by pwalker8

Prior to 1976, the US copyright was 28 years, plus the option of renewal for another 28 years, after it was life plus 50 which was done to conform to the Berne Convention. Most of the major US publishers pre-date that by quite a few years, Random House started in 1927, for example, MacMillan was started in 1843, Harper started in 1833. So the current publishing model predates the changes to the copyright laws by quite a long time and dates back to a time where it literally wasn't possible for the same publisher to publish books world wide.

All very true. I was commenting on the claim that copyright laws vary widely by country, which isn't really true - they vary, but not that much - and that there have been a lot of recent changes. I don't find 30 years all that recent.