Kindle Cloud Reader

[DiapDealer]

Originally Posted by stonetools

All this is a lot more complex than than the "Apple consumers are all sheep" meme so popular out there, of course, which is why folks like you buy into it.

Actually, it's not more complex at all. It's really a lot simpler than that.

"Consumers are sheep."

It has nothing to do with Apple or memes at all. To suggest that the iPhone's success has absolutely nothing to do with trends, or "my BFF has one so I simply must have one or I'll just shrivel up and die, mommy" is ludicrous.

Of course being a solidly designed device is a big part of it... it just ain't the whole picture.

And I'm not saying "trendy" is bad or wrong or deplorable... I'm just saying it is a big factor. Why does crediting Apple's marketing campaigns with hitting home runs have to be construed as being critical of Apple, their products, or their designs?

Why do you seem to see haters lurking everywhere?

[stonetools]

Your analysis was spot on up until you made this needless remark. My praising Apple's brilliant marketing does not equate to my calling their customers sheep.

Pretty much a corollary of putting down Apple's success to "brilliant marketing" is that customers are too dumb to see through such "brilliant marketing". You may have not meant that Apple customers were dumb, but that's the implication. Other people on the Internet (and even elsewhere on this thread)don't even imply it: they state as a fact that Apple's customers are dumb.
I actually left out a major factor why the Ipod continues to dominate: Itunes. Prioor to 2003, there were hardware manufacturers and digital music sellers, but they were seperate businesses. It was Apple's genius to create an integrated solution and, through software, to make it as simple and seamless to consumers as possible.
When your wife bought her Rio, it was up to her to find new content. She could depend on her techie hubby to rip CDs to her Rio and to find digital music stores online, of course. The ipod customer had Itunes. If the customer wanted to rip CDs , Itunes could that: if the customer wanted to buy and download new music, Itunes could do that: if the customer wanted to make fancy playlists, Itunes could even do that. And all without leaving the trusted Apple system (which Apple haters deride as the "walled garden"). Later , Apple customers through Itunes would move on to be able to buy movies, TV shows, and audiobooks.
It is really the Apple ecosystem that is driving Apple's profits now. Apple may be "brilliantly marketing" the benefits of being in that ecosystem: but for many people, those benefits are real.

[stonetools]

But enough about Linux. The idea that Apple is now the World's Largest Company because they offer the most intuitive interface to non-technical users is silly. Three words: marketing, Joneses, and herd.

Not that I think any of those are inherently evil, I'm just saying their success is not all about having the best (easiest) interface for average Joe Technophile... it's not even the main reason.

DD , it seems clear that you said that Apple's marketing and "trendiness" are the main reason why Apple is successful. The implication is that Apple could put crap out there and rely on "marketing, Joneses, and the herd" to carry them. However, when Apple puts crap out there,( Remember the Cube? The original Apple TV? Ping?), customers somehow reject it. How is it that the "sheep" don't follow Apple then?
Apple's successful products are always lauded for their intuitive interface and great design. Reviewers and consumers praise them for this, again and again. Do they market these advantages well? Sure, but they aren't marketing what's non-existent.

[DiapDealer]

Originally Posted by stonetools

DD , it seems clear that you said that Apple's marketing and "trendiness" are the main reason why Apple is successful.

Actually, the only thing that seems clear is that I admitted (not even grudgingly) the possibility that my opinion might be wrong when you asked me to... and that you promptly ignored my request to reciprocate the possibility RE your opinion. Just sayin'.

The implication is that Apple could put crap out there and rely on "marketing, Joneses, and the herd" to carry them.

I never "imply," so if it's not in my words, please don't try to attribute it to me. I never thought or suggested anything like the above statement. In fact, I think I was pretty clear that I'm not even being derogatory toward Apple at all. Of course they make a great product. How many times do I have to say it? I'm only challenging your assumption that hundreds of millions of units sold somehow equals the most intuitive and (non-techie) user-friendly interface going. A gadget's success/failure is not that simple and you know it.

[stonetools]

Originally Posted by DiapDealer

Actually, the only thing that seems clear is that I admitted (not even grudgingly) the possibility that my opinion might be wrong when you asked me to... and that you promptly ignored my request to reciprocate the possibility RE your opinion. Just sayin'.


I never "imply," so if it's not in my words, please don't try to attribute it to me. I never thought or suggested anything like the above statement. In fact, I think I was pretty clear that I'm not even being derogatory toward Apple at all. Of course they make a great product. How many times do I have to say it? I'm only challenging your assumption that hundreds of millions of units sold somehow equals the most intuitive and (non-techie) user-friendly interface going. A gadget's success/failure is not that simple and you know it.

Wow, people get really touchy when you quote their words back to them. Either the main reason for Apple's success is product quality, or the main reason is marketing, trendiness, and that "consumers ARE sheep".
You stated -not implied- the latter.
I think I'll leave it there. I'm inferring from the tone of your comment that further discussion would be unpleasant.

[DiapDealer]

Originally Posted by stonetools

Either the main reason for Apple's success is product quality, or the main reason is marketing, trendiness, and that "consumers ARE sheep".
You stated -not implied- the latter.

Why on earth does it have to be an either/or proposition?

I think I'll leave it there. I'm inferring from the tone of your comment that further discussion would be unpleasant.

OK... but there you go inferring again. Sticking to the words being typed is always the best way to go in my book, but whatever works for you.

Again, just for clarity's sake... are you're saying that there's just absolutely no way your opinion could be wrong?

[stonetools]

Originally Posted by DiapDealer

Why on earth does it have to be an either/or proposition?


OK... but there you go inferring again. Sticking to the words being typed is always the best way to go in my book, but whatever works for you.

Again, just for clarity's sake... are you're saying that there's just absolutely no way your opinion could be wrong?

I'll go one more on this. Can I be wrong? All together now: OF COUUUUURSE!

The point of our little dispute is whether Apple's MASSIVE success is chiefly due to product quality and secondarily due to marketing (My view) or chiefly due to marketing and secondarily due to product quality (your view). Now the logic of your view is that Apple can succeed through great marketing of even inferior products. Indeed, there are many on Internet that put it precisely that way-no inference or implication needed.
Now, I think one of the problems of Apple's success is that when people, particularly of the geekier sort, look at Apple products in isolation, they see products that are "flawed," "limited", and "crippled" .More charitably, they(like you do), see well designed products that are nevertheless inferior, spec wise, to many competitors' products. Yet consumer flock by the tens of millions to Apple products. How can that be, they say. Well, it must be that wonderful Apple marketing that leads around those consumer sheep. THAT's the major secret of Apple's success. Those who hold that view can also get to congratulate themselves on not being one of those "sheep".

I think too that such folk tend to miss that Apple's success is not mainly through the creation of individual products that are great: what Apple has built up over that last 10 years is a SYSTEM that is great.
The Ios platform is a system for distribution and sale of digital content through Ios devices. THAT is what consumers love, and they love it because it is demonstrably superior in terms of ease of use and content to the systems built by competitors, even though the competitor's PRODUCTS are superior in various ways. Does Apple's marketing help to make that point to consumers? OF COUUURSE!

But if the SYSTEM was not in fact superior, Apple's marketing would not make it so. Why are Apple's "There's an app for that" commercials so successful? Because there really IS a app for just about everything you want to do in the App Store, whether you're a family man, a backpacker, or a pet lover.

[Graham]

Originally Posted by stonetools

Pretty much a corollary of putting down Apple's success to "brilliant marketing" is that customers are too dumb to see through such "brilliant marketing". You may have not meant that Apple customers were dumb, but that's the implication.

Complete and utter rubbish. I'm sure you agree with me that Apple's marketing is brilliant. Neither you nor I are calling Apple's customers sheep in stating that.

Originally Posted by stonetools

When your wife bought her Rio, it was up to her to find new content. She could depend on her techie hubby to rip CDs to her Rio and to find digital music stores online, of course.

No, she did not need me at all. She had absolutely no trouble doing it herself. You seem to think that this is a hard thing to do outside of iTunes. It is not.

Originally Posted by stonetools

It is really the Apple ecosystem that is driving Apple's profits now. Apple may be "brilliantly marketing" the benefits of being in that ecosystem: but for many people, those benefits are real.

And I never implied that those benefits were not real.

If you go back and read what was actually said you'll see that I was questioning the contention that non-Apple products were 'just for geeks' since the features that the 'average user' was likely to be concerned with (battery life, storage capacity, sound quality) were better in the competing products.

I proposed that brilliant marketing was a major part of the reason that the competitors couldn't get a real foot in the door. You've countered with extremely valid points about the head start with iPod adoption and the strong ecosystem. That's all fine.

But please don't attack me for perceived slights against Apple customers that simply don't exist in my posts.

Graham

[DiapDealer]

Thanks, stonetools. It seems we're not so far apart in our positions after all.

My only beef was that you were speaking in absolutes. Namely that Apple HAS the easiest and MOST intuitive interface and that somehow that "fact" was easily proven by the huge number of units sold... The End.

Originally Posted by stonetools

In every case, they succeeded not because they brought the first product to market, but because they brought to market the first product that was easiest and most intuitive to use. I don't say that-consumers say that- hundreds of millions of them over the years.

There's simply more to it than that. Your last post tells me that you're willing to acknowledge that now. Thanks! We're done here.

And I have done quite a bit of messing around with Amazon's new Cloud Reader. I like it. I can't see me utilizing it very often, but I can definitely see a lot of lunch-hour readers using it. It's a solid addition to their reader app fleet.

[stonetools]

No, she did not need me at all. She had absolutely no trouble doing it herself. You seem to think that this is a hard thing to do outside of iTunes. It is not.

Sorry for that assumption. You said she was very non-techie. MY non-techie wife would have trouble with this.

But please don't attack me for perceived slights against Apple that simply don't exist in my posts.

Didn't think I made any personal attacks on you, mate. I'll just add that when someone says that Apple competitor's products are superior, then says the reason why consumers nevertheless buy Apple's products are due to marketing, the inescapable inference is that they are being hoodwinked by misleading marketing that they are simply too dumb to see through. That is certainly how Apple customers take such comments, however you may have intended them ( See many other comment threads on this forum).

[avantman42]

Originally Posted by stonetools

And all without leaving the trusted Apple system (which Apple haters deride as the "walled garden").

I've heard the term "walled garden" used in many contexts, and not only by people who hated the system being described. Way back when, I remember AOL and Compuserve being descried as walled gardens. I dare say Apple haters use it in a derogatory manner, but I think you're making a mistake if you assume that everyone who uses it to describe the Apple system hates Apple.

[RockdaMan]

Apple foiled by surprise technology!

It’s times like this when all the Macalope can do is sit back and ask himself “what are these people smoking?” Apparently, the new consensus amongst the silly pundit class is that Amazon has totally stuck it to Apple by developing a “web app” that circumvents Apple’s draconian subscription policy.

BOO-YAH! In your face, Apple! Bet you never saw that coming, did you?! You were all like, “oh, Amazon’s gonna give us 30 percent of all its Kindle revanooz and it’s gonna be so sweeeeeeet!” And then, BAM! Out of nowhere came this space-age technology called “HTML5,” and you’re all like whaaaaaa? Where’s my blood money?!

What’s particularly rich is all this caterwauling about how unfair Apple’s 30-percent take is to Amazon. Amazon, which took 70 percent of independent book sales until the App Store came along. That was apparently totally cool and not at all like totalitarian socialist regimes.

http://www.macworld.com/article/1617..._surprise.html

[stonetools]

RDM, don't you know that everything Amazon does is wonderful, because low prices, whereas Apple is EVUUL because it brought in agency pricing, all by itself, with Google , independent booksellers , and EVERYONE but Amazon being innocent bystanders?
Its worth noting , once again, that all these booksellers could have HTML 5 apps from day one, with all the Buy buttons they wanted. They decided to go native app instead, knowing that this put them at risk of Apple changing its approval policy.
I don't agree with everything in the Macalope article, but his take is mostly spot on.

[RockdaMan]

Originally Posted by stonetools

all these booksellers could have HTML 5 apps from day one, with all the Buy buttons they wanted. They decided to go native app instead

I don't agree with everything in the Macalope article

Like what?

[RockdaMan]

Originally Posted by stonetools

The point of our little dispute is whether Apple's MASSIVE success is chiefly due to product quality and secondarily due to marketing (My view) or chiefly due to marketing and secondarily due to product quality (your view).

If it were just marketing Apple would not be unique. Just as others copy it's hardware designs, they'd find a way to copy it's marketing schtick: through hiring away its marketers, outright forgery, etc...

There is more to it.