"Why wired.com is wrong about ebooks"

[astrangerhere]

Ok as the OP here, I am going to call on you guys and beg you to please take it outside.

In turn, I am going to pose a question that I am curious to know what more of you think of from the orignal wired.com article -

Do you find ebooks more disposable than paper ones? Do you keep multiple backups? Are you more apt to delete an ebook or give away a DTB? Do you feel that this is a valid argument against ereading? Why?

[Sil_liS]

Originally Posted by Prestidigitweeze

It would be nice, however, if someone other than AGB went back to my first post on this thread and actually noticed I said nothing to invite the vitriol that has continually derailed it.

You should be aware that then you write a post, somebody replies, and then an hour later you post again saying that you were in the middle of changing the post, it doesn't really look good when the editing time it so long after the initial post. It reminded me a little of this.

I understand that it happens, because I've started writing posts, stopped to do something else, and then continued not realizing that somebody might have written something relevant in the meantime. But do you realize that you have edited every single one of your posts in this thread? It is a little disconcerting when I read your post, hit reply, and see a slightly different post between the quotes than the one that I just read.

And on the point that you were making in the initial post, the things that are lacking in today's ereaders, might be improved with a future update. I don't think that anybody would say that the note taking options are perfect, but there are advantages over handwritten ones.

[Sil_liS]

Originally Posted by astrangerhere

Do you find ebooks more disposable than paper ones? Do you keep multiple backups? Are you more apt to delete an ebook or give away a DTB? Do you feel that this is a valid argument against ereading? Why?

I think that I carried my book reading habits from pbooks to ebooks. I have multiple backups of research articles mostly because it is easy to just have them on different devices. But I wouldn't delete a book from a device unless I have it an another.

However I haven't been in the ebook world for long enough to know if this is going to hold. I think that it would be easy for example to say that I can remove a public domain book from all my devices, because I can always download it later if I wanted to.

[Sweetpea]

Originally Posted by astrangerhere

In turn, I am going to pose a question that I am curious to know what more of you think of from the orignal wired.com article -

Do you find ebooks more disposable than paper ones? Do you keep multiple backups? Are you more apt to delete an ebook or give away a DTB? Do you feel that this is a valid argument against ereading? Why?

No. Yes. No and No. No.

A lot people will buy a mass market paperback and read it once, then either toss it out or give it away/sell it.

So, if this is a valid argument against preading, then the fact that a lot of people will only read an ebook once and then toss it out, is also a valid argument against ereading.

And I even have problems giving away a book as gift (meaning: a book I bought specifically for somebody to give as a gift...) I couldn't part with all my own loved books, be they p or e!

[Prestidigitweeze]

Yeah, the bait-and-response is over, OP. I learned my lesson.

Originally Posted by Sil_liS

But do you realize that you have edited every single one of your posts in this thread? It is a little disconcerting when I read your post, hit reply, and see a slightly different post between the quotes than the one that I just read.

Yes, I do realize that nearly all of my posts are revised -- and not just on this thread. It doesn't mean anything other than that I'm anal about style (and always have been).

Besides which, your comparison of my extensive editing to the dishonesty of bandwidth stealing seems totally false. On the one hand, you have an innocent act of revision that doesn't hurt anyone and is intended to improve the experience of reading the post. On the other, you have someone who's creating massive pseudo-traffic for someone else, which can pose problems (and even shut-downs) for the site owner. Not exactly parallel situations. Besides which, people revise their writing all the time with no motive but to improve it.

And on the point that you were making in the initial post, the things that are lacking in today's ereaders, might be improved with a future update. I don't think that anybody would say that the note taking options are perfect, but there are advantages over handwritten ones.

Luckily, that subject dovetails into the OP's last question and returns us to the thread's topic.

The whole paper-versus-eReader interpretation had nothing to do with my idea. I was actually lobbying for an improved backup system and thinking about Sony readers specifically, since I own a few and the post by the college student was so sad. We can all empathize with someone who loses everything at the very end of a project.

I once knew a producer who spent $200,000 recording tracks on an album and left the analog tapes in a cab. No system is perfect, but there has to be some kind of backup. Hard copies aren't necessarily the answer either.

What I'd like to see is a backup system that saves (1) notes in their positions on the eBook's page, presumably as pictures, and (2) a plain text file of the notes. If that existed, the Wired writer's criticism about notes would be irrelevant.

It's difficult to make specific pronouncements about the eBooks because the formats and concept are in their relative infancy. Imagine how many things might have changed by the time virtually every book in print is also available as an eBook.

[AGB]

I used to toss or give away books in the past, as I didn't want the dust collectors on my shelves. These days, I thoroughly enjoy having most digital. It makes it easy to keep all the books without the dust and shelve space, easy to move house with and easy to back up.

To me, that means ebooks are less disposable than paper books.

[AGB]

Originally Posted by Prestidigitweeze

The whole paper-versus-eReader question had nothing to do with that post. I was lobbying for an improved backup system and thinking about Sony readers specifically, since I own a few and the post by the college student was so sad. We can all empathize with someone who loses everything at the very end of a project.

Not really. Again, it's called "backing up your work and documents". If the student had had a modicom of common sense, that is what he would have done.

I once knew a producer who spent $200,000 recording tracks on an album and left the analog tapes in a cab. No system is perfect, but there has to be some kind of backup and hard copies aren't necessarily the answer either.

Had he had it in digital form and used back ups as common sense dictates, he would have had a copy of all the work. Only an idiot don't back up their work - in particular audio and video work, academic papers and so on (a sales document from a bike is perhaps not that important to back up).

[Prestidigitweeze]

Originally Posted by AGB

Not really. Again, it's called "backing up your work and documents". If the student had had a modicom of common sense, that is what he would have done.

Yes, she should have backed up her notes as plain text and now she knows. But that still wouldn't restore the position of the notes, which she needed and talked about. I can see that happening to a lot of people -- even the ones who back up their notes but don't understand the format the backup files will be in.

Had he had it in digital form and used back ups as common sense dictates, he would have had a copy of all the work. Only an idiot don't back up their work - in particular audio and video work, academic papers and so on.

The point is that he was an idiot. The co-producer and artist wanted to murder him and then continue to torture him in the afterlife.

But I doubt he made that mistake ever again. He told me about this twenty years after it happened and he was still a prolific producer when I knew him.

[AGB]

Originally Posted by Prestidigitweeze

Yes, she should have backed up her notes as plain text and now she knows. But that still doesn't restore the position of the notes, which she needed and talked about.

No, not as plain text. As the document is for real, keeping the formatting. It's not just saving the document, it's actually backing it up so you can continue the work since the last back up. Saving a corrupted copy is not backing up your work.
Plain text

I can see that happening to a lot of people -- even the ones who back up their notes but don't understand the format the backup files will be in.

What - you mean like you not understanding what backing up entails?

The point is that he was an idiot. The co-producer and artist wanted to murder him and then continue to torture him in the afterlife.

Hmm, so your point was to show that an idiot who doesn't back up his work somehow reflects bad on the notion of backing up one's work?

But I doubt he made that mistake ever again. He told me about this twenty years after it happened and he was still a prolific producer.

Well, it still doesn't say anything other than he was an idiot not to back up his work. And we already knew that backing up one's work is the way to protect oneself from mistakes and loss of work.

[WT Sharpe]

Originally Posted by astrodad

No offense to the author, but the piece reads like it was written by someone who doesn't read very much.

At least not on modern ereaders.

Originally Posted by garrybuck

My favorite is argument #5, books as interior decoration items. There's a much cheaper way to do that than either ebooks or pbooks. Why not just use the props that real interior decorators use then staging a model home? They are empty cardboard boxes that look like a stack of classic books. They are as empty of content as the article in Wired, but it presents the right image.

Good point.

As for beautiful decor, I have three Oberon covers, one for my iPad, and one each for my Kindle 2 and Kindle 3. I'll put those lovely covers against any hardcover in the author's house.

Originally Posted by Vic333

Well, I have 5 better reasons to not trust e-books:

1) I'm a Luddite. I don't trust tech-mology, and write about how awful it is on my web page.

2) I like to write on things, like a little kid, and paper books are like page after page of activity sheets.

3) I'm scared, and wolves are after me! I can throw a dictionary much more effectively than a Kindle.

4) Waiting for a book to arrive in the mail is like foreplay for reading.

5) I like to display all the books I've read for people to see. I also take picture of my food and make picture books out of them, which I then display on my book shelf for people to see.

You should have written the article. Your reasons are more believable!

Of course, I resemble your reason #2. I tend to go crazy with the highlighting pens. People have more than once accused me of treating all books as if they were coloring books.

Originally Posted by crich70

My answers to the original points from the wired article.

...2. If you have more than 3,500 books you can't keep them all on one device, but there are these things called DVD's which can hold 1000's of book files....

Ha! I'd like to see what 3,500 books would look like in my modest house. My wife would shoot me. I don't have room for the p-books I do have.

Originally Posted by crich70

...3. Written notes only help you if you can read your own handwriting....

Which is why I always print in the margins of p-books. As for ebooks, I find the Kindle's passage copying and annotation functions are excellent, and I don't miss writing in the margins. As a plus, the notes and copied passages are all stored in a file that is easily downloaded into my PC along with their locations in the books. This makes research a breeze.

[WT Sharpe]

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[Prestidigitweeze]

Originally Posted by AGB

Hmm, so your point was to show that an idiot who doesn't back up his work somehow reflects bad on the notion of backing up one's work?

The point was that the physical permanence of a given medium doesn't mean the user is necessarily safe; sometimes multiple digital copies trump a single hard copy.

Most of us haven't got space for multiple hard copies of everything, especially as we get older. Those who continue buying/making physical copies tend to show up on the Hoarding Channel.

That's an argument in favor of eBooks over physical books -- as long as a reliable backup system's in place, ideally allowing whatever kinds of backup files the user finds most helpful.

Originally Posted by AGB

No, not as plain text. As the document is for real, keeping the formatting.

One complaint on that thread was that some notes couldn't be restored even when they were backed up -- moved books, changed paths, etc. A plain text option would allow for that compromise when the format of the notes was impossible to resurrect. Then again, you've sort of got that with XML.

I expect she's now typing her notes elsewhere instead of using her reader's stylus.

[Sweetpea]

Originally Posted by WT Sharpe

Of course, I resemble your reason #2. I tend to go crazy with the highlighting pens. People have more than once accused me of treating all books as if they were coloring books.

Time to shun you! You don't deface a book, not for any reason!

Originally Posted by WT Sharpe

Ha! I'd like to see what 3,500 books would look like in my modest house. My wife would shoot me. I don't have room for the p-books I do have.

I'd like to see what 3.500 books would look like in any average house. If his complaint was you couldn't keep all your books in one place, I wonder what kind of house he has that he can keep all his books in one place. And if he ever goes on holiday (or if he does, how he'll take all his books with him all in one place!)

[Prestidigitweeze]

Originally Posted by Sweetpea

Time to shun you! You don't deface a book, not for any reason!

As a student, I used to differentiate between books needed for grueling study and those I intended to keep. Even in temporarily useful books, I tended to use a soft pencil after grade school, where I learned about the limitations of erasable pens.

(Perhaps that makes me a temporary leper.)

Sometimes people have to mark a physical book when they're studying for a deadline. It isn't the same as finding a memorable line in the midst of casual reading -- a line which is probably better to paste or enter into an email to themselves.

[Sweetpea]

Originally Posted by Prestidigitweeze

As a student, I used to differentiate between books needed for grueling study and those I intended to keep (though sometimes books were both). I tended to use a soft pencil after grade school, where I learned about the limitations of erasable pens.

Sometimes you have to mark a physical book when you're studying for a test. It isn't the same as finding a memorable line as a reader, which is better sent to or entered into a computer anyway -- don't you think?

I never felt the need to write inside a book, even when I went to school. My schoolbooks (those that I didn't buy second-hand) are still as clean as when I bought them. If I needed to remember something for a test, I'd write it down on a piece of paper. I always found that easier to study later than trying to find the "important" parts inside a book.