Amazon removing gay ebooks from their catalog again

[Bani]

It seems like this case here is more about Amazon objecting to one of the characters being 17 years old. What's funny to me though is that if the character were 18 or even 25, I doubt they would look all that different. Fanciful and exaggerated as manga drawings are, they're still intended to be reflections of Asian people. We typically age slowly. In my case, annoyingly so. Even though I'll be turning 25 in a few months, I'm stlll mistaken as 15 years old, max. And this was after getting a "mature" haircut. :\

Anyway, back on topic, I hope Amazon will be consistent if it turns out to be an issue with porn, period. Banning the gay porn but allowing het porn makes no sense for a site like Amazon that aims to be diverse.

[caleb72]

Originally Posted by Ea

I think it got lost somewhere in the discussion, but one of the largest (if not the largest) consumer group of m/m erotic manga is heterosexual women, not gays.

Can the same be said for run-of-the-mill m/m erotica, sans manga? Just interested because I notice that quite a few authors of m/m erotica authors are women.

Regards
Caleb

[crich70]

Or from our fathers or older brothers when they weren't looking in some cases. lol.

Originally Posted by carld

Kids these days and their fancy interweb porn. In my day we got our porn the old fashioned way. We stole it from the 5 & dime while old Man Farnsworth wasn't looking. The way God intended!

[Asawi]

Originally Posted by ps249

Would you want YOUR children exposed to graphic homosexual atcivity?

The question wasn't directed to me, but I really feel the need to answer it anyway:

I don't want children to be exposed to graphic sexual activity of any kind.
Homo- or heterosexual really doesn't matter to me.
For some reason it does matter to Amazon, and apparently to you.
That does make Amazon, and you, bigots in my book (no pun intended).

[HansTWN]

Originally Posted by Bani

It seems like this case here is more about Amazon objecting to one of the characters being 17 years old. What's funny to me though is that if the character were 18 or even 25, I doubt they would look all that different. Fanciful and exaggerated as manga drawings are, they're still intended to be reflections of Asian people. We typically age slowly. In my case, annoyingly so. Even though I'll be turning 25 in a few months, I'm stlll mistaken as 15 years old, max. And this was after getting a "mature" haircut. :\

Anyway, back on topic, I hope Amazon will be consistent if it turns out to be an issue with porn, period. Banning the gay porn but allowing het porn makes no sense for a site like Amazon that aims to be diverse.

You mean East Asians look younger (Chinese, Koreans, Japanese, etc). South East Asians actually look a lot older, on average.

[Ea]

Originally Posted by caleb72

Can the same be said for run-of-the-mill m/m erotica, sans manga? Just interested because I notice that quite a few authors of m/m erotica authors are women.

As far as I'm aware, yes absolutely, but I'd say it depends on the material. Women tend to be more interested in erotica(*) produced for women, rather than erotica produced for men. For example m/m romance or slash fan fiction, which is typically written by women.


* I use the word erotica rather than porn because I think it covers a wider range of material.

[wyndslash]

Originally Posted by Asawi

The question wasn't directed to me, but I really feel the need to answer it anyway:

I don't want children to be exposed to graphic sexual activity of any kind.
Homo- or heterosexual really doesn't matter to me.
For some reason it does matter to Amazon, and apparently to you.
That does make Amazon, and you, bigots in my book (no pun intended).

[BuddyBoy]

Originally Posted by Bani

It seems like this case here is more about Amazon objecting to one of the characters being 17 years old. What's funny to me though is that if the character were 18 or even 25, I doubt they would look all that different.

I've never really gotten into manga - the few times I've encountered it (like in the magazine Monocle) I've always ended up reading it the wrong way, right to left. But who knows, maybe now that I know about the gay erotic stuff, I might have to take another look.

The aspect that really puzzles me about this is, as far as I know, that the main reason behind laws on child pornography are to protect children from sexual exploitation, which is why the age of consent for sexual relations can be 14 or 16, but the age of consent for participation of pornography can actually be 18 or 21. You don't want kids to be drawn into the world of being porn objects, especially when they're too young to understand the consequences. Personally I tend to favor the minimum age of 21 for this, but it seems I'm in a minority.

Nonetheless, the part that puzzles me is this: how can a fictional drawing be exploited? Photos and video, yes, they exploit the model, but a cartoon?

Edited to add: just reviewed the legal cases, and the laws introduced over the last 10 years. I see the argued theory is that cartoon depictions can lead to copycat abuse.

[Frida Fantastic]

Originally Posted by Ea

As far as I'm aware, yes absolutely, but I'd say it depends on the material. Women tend to be more interested in erotica(*) produced for women, rather than erotica produced for men. For example m/m romance or slash fan fiction, which is typically written by women.

I haven't read enough erotica to be able to pinpoint the target audience: "okay, this is for women, this is for men", but yeah, it brings up the good point that just cuz it's m/m doesn't mean it's just for the consumption of homosexual men. Look at the fanfiction community:a lot of women who write and read slash. I would consider it normal and acceptable to read about characters (whether in erotica or other genres) with a different sexual orientation from the reader.

We read books from with the POV of the opposite gender all the time. We read/watch books/movies with sex (of varying intensity/graphic nature) all the time. I don't think it's really that much of a stretch to think that it should be normal for readers to read about characters with a different gender/orientation having sex. Maybe erotica's not for everyone, but the idea of people who aren't homosexual reading m/m isn't inherently strange.

I think it could make sense for Amazon to have a special over 18 section where all the more sexually explicit books are stocked (where you you have to access with an age-approved Amazon account or something), but again, that should include all m/m, w/m, w/w, w/m/w/mwhatever across the board. Just *not* stocking m/m just because it's m/m makes Amazon a bunch of bigots.

[Kenneth_irl]

If I had children (as in over 12+) I wouldn't care whether they liked to read gay manga or straight manga. What I would truly care about is their happiness . I would want to give my support in the choices that they would make, even if I wouldn't do the same, feel the same about it, because they wouldn't just be an extension of me, but also they own person.

ps249 has clearly proven himself to be a bigot. Only a bigot could defend his hate/fear against homosexuality with that it's a threat to human procreation. These people are so full of themselves and busy pointing fingers at others, maybe they should take a throughly look at themselves instead. But I guess that is the hard thing to do. It's so much easier hating on others. That's the easy choice. If you're open to new ideas, perspectives it can potential threaten your happiness (your roots, so to say), but it's also the sign of a strong character.

[CommonReader]

Originally Posted by Nyssa

The way I see it, if the parties involved are consenting & adult (preferably 21 and over since I feel 18 is not really adult), what they do to or with each other is none of my d***n business - Gay, straight, bi, or trans.

The US sometimes looks like a strange place for sure. While people may be considered to be old enough to marry, to enlist and and die for their country or to receive the death penalty, they are not considered to be sufficiently mature to get a can of beer until they are 21. Apparently they aren't considered to be old enough to have sex in exchange for money until they are 21 either.
I've seen Playboy magazine being called porn in this thread. You do not seriously consider the tame photos in Playboy as porn, do you?

[Iphinome]

Originally Posted by CommonReader

The US sometimes looks like a strange place for sure. While people may be considered to be old enough to marry, to enlist and and die for their country or to receive the death penalty, they are not considered to be sufficiently mature to get a can of beer until they are 21. Apparently they aren't considered to be old enough to have sex in exchange for money until they are 21 either.
I've seen Playboy magazine being called porn in this thread. You do not seriously consider the tame photos in Playboy as porn, do you?

Country founded by puritans.

[caleb72]

I'm not quite ready to jump on the bigot bandwagon with Amazon yet. They publish m/m erotica freely.

Yes, this is the second incident made public (that I'm aware of) where the content has happened to be m/m but I do think the first incident - How to Rape a Straight Guy - was a misunderstanding based on the title rather than a bigoted action against gay content. In the end, all content was restored.

I don't like the idea of content being removed myself:

1) It's against the ideal Amazon set up in the first place
2) The size and scope of Amazon as an ebook retailer internationally makes books being banned a rather detrimental thing for authors of those types of books
3) I'm always worried that the threat of point 2 eventually leads to a self-censorship that I take to be detrimental to us as readers

I'm talking of course of concerns I have about these things from a wider perspective. I am not saying that Amazon has to do anything and I'm not saying that they are bigots. That's a word I'm not so anxious to use on people or organisations unless I'm quite sure.

Regards
Caleb

[crich70]

Some good points. It is unfortunate that Amazon does things the way they do as it leads to potential misunderstandings. I don't have a quarrel with them deciding what they will and won't offer for sale as that is their right as the store owner. My concern is that they leave it uncertain as to why they do it, which leads to not being sure that a given author's work will or won't be welcome. Which no doubt leads to the self-censorship you mention caleb. I mean why should an author try to get their work published via Amazon if they have no assurance their work won't vanish off the electronic book shelves without warning? That's why I think Amazon should give a reason why when they remove books. The law may not require it but it would certainly be the polite thing to do so others know where they stand, and so the rest of us could know it wasn't the sensibilities of a few deciding what the rest of us are allowed to read.

Originally Posted by caleb72

I'm not quite ready to jump on the bigot bandwagon with Amazon yet. They publish m/m erotica freely.

Yes, this is the second incident made public (that I'm aware of) where the content has happened to be m/m but I do think the first incident - How to Rape a Straight Guy - was a misunderstanding based on the title rather than a bigoted action against gay content. In the end, all content was restored.

I don't like the idea of content being removed myself:

1) It's against the ideal Amazon set up in the first place
2) The size and scope of Amazon as an ebook retailer internationally makes books being banned a rather detrimental thing for authors of those types of books
3) I'm always worried that the threat of point 2 eventually leads to a self-censorship that I take to be detrimental to us as readers

I'm talking of course of concerns I have about these things from a wider perspective. I am not saying that Amazon has to do anything and I'm not saying that they are bigots. That's a word I'm not so anxious to use on people or organisations unless I'm quite sure.

Regards
Caleb

[Nyssa]

Originally Posted by CommonReader

The US sometimes looks like a strange place for sure. While people may be considered to be old enough to marry, to enlist and and die for their country or to receive the death penalty, they are not considered to be sufficiently mature to get a can of beer until they are 21. Apparently they aren't considered to be old enough to have sex in exchange for money until they are 21 either.
I've seen Playboy magazine being called porn in this thread. You do not seriously consider the tame photos in Playboy as porn, do you?

I think the legal age for everything should be 21. I agree that it is ridiculous for a boy to offer to lay down his life for his country but be denied a drink when he comes home alive.

As for Playboy: I actually haven't seen one since I was a preteen so I have no idea. Is it all "just" naked pictures or do they show people in the act?