Why are DRM ebooks evil and why should I avoid them like the plague?

[stonetools]

Originally Posted by Piper_

I've tried to think of a reply that would be short, polite, and doesn't repeat what's already been explained and ignored, but I can't.

With all due respect, I think you're either:

1. Terribly ill-informed due to being unwilling or unable to comprehend the facts and points shown through several threads.

2. Informed or intelligent enough to grasp the facts that have been given to you through several threads, but hope to smear honest people and hoodwink observers.

Whichever of the two it is, I'm going to trust that most people who come to this site won't be deceived by it.

/a person in a multi-device family, (Sony, kindle, and nook) who cannot share ebooks with them without stripping DRM. And one who knows that people were indeed harmed by Amazon's and others' changing DRM schemes, unless they had non-drm'd backups.

Well, I love you too.
I'll just skip to the end to vaporize that strawman so beloved of the anti DRM crowd- the mythical multi device family that just CANNOT share ebooks without stripping DRM.
First of all, we have to wonder why the Multidevices did go ahead and buy different dedicated ereaders without considering the difficulties of sharing ebooks. Where they that clueless, really? Don't they get to pay a stupid tax? Do they also own Linux, Windows, and Macintosh PCs? They're gonna get a hell of a surprise if they try to share files and applications. Just sayin'
OK, so they all bought different readers without any forethought, because that's how the strawman is built. The Multidevices must surely have at least one PC in the house. If so, there are PC applications for Sony, Kindle and Nook so they can read each other's books on the PC.
Do the Multidevices have tablets, smartphones or PMPs? No problem-they can download apps and share accounts and libraries on those devices.
No PCs, smartphones, or tablets, but three different kinds of ereaders? Hey, I can go to that reducio ad absurdum too. They could-and I know for the digerati, this seems really insane- just physically LEND their ereaders to their other family members. After all, they are all family, right? And in the olden days, when dinosaurs roamed the earth, people actually handed their physical books to family members, thus depriving themselves of the books for a time, till the borrower gave the book back. Lending ereaders is precisely analogous to lending pbooks, old school.
So there you have it. Family members can share ebooks in several different ways, without violating DRM or the federal copyright laws, as is your wont. You don't have to choose to violate the law if you don't want to.
I hope this lays to rest this zombie argument for all time-though I doubt it

[Piper_]

Originally Posted by stonetools

So there you have it.

Indeed, that answer to the problem says it all. Thanks.

[Worldwalker]

Originally Posted by stonetools

And in the olden days, when dinosaurs roamed the earth, people actually handed their physical books to family members, thus depriving themselves of the books for a time, till the borrower gave the book back. Lending ereaders is precisely analogous to lending pbooks, old school.

If I lend a physical book to a family member, I have lent them one book. I can still read every other book in my library.

If I lend my ebook reader to a family member, I have lent them my entire library. I can't read any book at all until they're done with that one.

That is not "precisely analogous". It's not even close.

[Elfwreck]

Originally Posted by stonetools

This is a problem that goes far beyond DRM and ebooks and applies to electronic media in general. Electronic media has ALWAYS had a problem with shifts in technology leading to obsolescence in earlier forms . Bing Crosby's " White christmas" was originally recorded on 78 rpm vinyl platters-a media form that was obsolescent before I was born and is obsolete today.

But when cassettes became popular, 78 RPM was still fairly common (at least on record players, if not commonly sold), and anyone could convert their 78's to the new music format, with all-legal materials. People could tell each other how to arrange their tape recorders and the wiring necessary to get a good conversion.

You can't as easily convert a 6-year-old Adobe DRM'd ebook to something readable on a new device. The software to do so is widely available--if you're willing to deal with being on the shady side of the DMCA.

Ebooks are just as good -or as bad- at being a cultural repository as any other form of electronic media and are just as subject to change.
...Culture will still continue to be recorded and passed down in different ways, regardless of whether DRM or even ebooks survives.

Culture will continue just fine. Ebooks will remain a fringe hobby to literature until there's a way for them to be legitimately shared with friends at random. The gap between "legit ebook purchased use" and "underground filesharing" will continue to grow as long as publishers & authors refuse to find a way for people to treat ebooks the way they've always treated books.

People are willing to be reasonable; they know there's a difference between "share with a friend or two" and "post contents to my facebook for my 4,000 followers to download." But right now--both of those are legally the same. Until that changes, there's no incentive to *only* post to a friend or two; if you're going to be guilty of something that might have a $150,000 penalty, why not make a *lot* of people happy first?

Besides which, of course, even DRMED ebooks can be legitimately shared in numerous ways. More about that on my next post.

"Numerous?" This I gotta see.
I know of two:
You can share them with up to 6 people who have access to your book-buying account, and have no separate account (on that device) of their own.

You can loan some books, one time for two weeks, to another person with the same kind of ebook software.

You know of others? Last I heard, ebook device sellers were saying it's illegal (or at least against the TOS) to sell the device with books still on it; you can't even share them by getting rid of your entire collection.

[HansTWN]

deleted

[HansTWN]

Originally Posted by stonetools

Well, I love you too.
I'll just skip to the end to vaporize that strawman so beloved of the anti DRM crowd- the mythical multi device family that just CANNOT share ebooks without stripping DRM.
First of all, we have to wonder why the Multidevices did go ahead and buy different dedicated ereaders without considering the difficulties of sharing ebooks. Where they that clueless, really? Don't they get to pay a stupid tax? Do they also own Linux, Windows, and Macintosh PCs? They're gonna get a hell of a surprise if they try to share files and applications. Just sayin'
OK, so they all bought different readers without any forethought, because that's how the strawman is built. The Multidevices must surely have at least one PC in the house. If so, there are PC applications for Sony, Kindle and Nook so they can read each other's books on the PC.
Do the Multidevices have tablets, smartphones or PMPs? No problem-they can download apps and share accounts and libraries on those devices.
No PCs, smartphones, or tablets, but three different kinds of ereaders? Hey, I can go to that reducio ad absurdum too. They could-and I know for the digerati, this seems really insane- just physically LEND their ereaders to their other family members. After all, they are all family, right? And in the olden days, when dinosaurs roamed the earth, people actually handed their physical books to family members, thus depriving themselves of the books for a time, till the borrower gave the book back. Lending ereaders is precisely analogous to lending pbooks, old school.
So there you have it. Family members can share ebooks in several different ways, without violating DRM or the federal copyright laws, as is your wont. You don't have to choose to violate the law if you don't want to.
I hope this lays to rest this zombie argument for all time-though I doubt it

All this would make a lot of sense --- if ebooks were significantly cheaper than pbooks (which don't offer any such restrictions). They are not.

Yes, you can work around those restrictions (we are the ones who know how to do that), but we as ebook buyers can reasonably expect not to have to do so. And yes, most people are new to ebooks now and on their first device, so they are blissfully unaware of the problems they will most probably run into in the future. It already happened to me, I just found a way to take care of it. Those problems will be coming for many helpless readers, however, and then publishers will face a backlash from the book buying public. Keep pretending that everything is just find and dandy, while your employers are cashing in on that first really big wave of ebook converts. And in the next 2-3 years another wave of angry users will be coming right at you.

You don't have to convince the MR crowd. For us DRM is just a 20 second nuisance at most. It is the publishing industry who should wake up and prepare for the future. You can rationalize all you want, but stabbing your own customers in the back doesn't bode well for the future, even if you are raking it in right now.

[kennyc]

Originally Posted by stonetools

...
I hope this lays to rest this zombie argument for all time-though I doubt it

What needs to be laid to rest is you shilling for the publishers.

DRM needs to go. It had to go in every other digital technology and must in ebooks as well. The dinosaurs must die as they died before. The couldn't adapt, death was the result. It will be here too if they are unwilling to change. They will be the only zombies around. This is the way business and evolution works. Please pass that message back to your handlers.

[Elfwreck]

Originally Posted by kennyc

What needs to be laid to rest is you shilling for the publishers.

I really don't think he's a shill. Publishers don't argue the pros and cons of DRM; they make noise about losses due to piracy and make lawsuit threats.

Plenty of people love Amazon and WalMart and think they're both terrific companies without being in any way affiliated with it. I think he's wrong about DRM, and prone to interesting flaws in his logic, but I don't think he's deliberately trying to prop up a failing business model--I think he thinks it's a valid and successful model.

DRM needs to go. It had to go in every other digital technology and must in ebooks as well. The dinosaurs must die as they died before.

It'll take a while in ebooks; publishing has a lot more inertia than other media, and the changes are slower. The indie digital/PoD publishing thing is moving much, much faster than any part of the legacy publishing industry can cope with. I'd feel kinda sorry for them... if they weren't fighting hard to ignore what people actually want to buy.

I feel sorry for Baen; they really need to get their ebooks in more places. I've run across a lot of new ebook readers in the last year or two who don't know Baen exists.

[kennyc]

Originally Posted by Elfwreck

I really don't think he's a shill. .

You've said it before but I disagree.

Oh and he's not arguing pros and cons, he's arguing there are work-around.

[HansTWN]

Originally Posted by kennyc

You've said it before but I disagree.

Oh and he's not arguing pros and cons, he's arguing there are work-around.

He is arguing the pros and pros, you might say.

[kennyc]

Originally Posted by HansTWN

He is arguing the pros and pros, you might say.

Exactly.

[stonetools]

Hey if folks want to believe that they are going Mano a mano with a paid agent of the evil publishing empire, well, they can go right ahead. A rich fantasy life is good for the soul. According to Kennyc and others, I am working for Apple and the publishers and amazon. Those tin foil hats must be mighty comfortable.

[kennyc]

I never said you were working for Apple. That must be a fantasy of yours.

You do live in the heart of the publishing lobby though and are doing your damnedest to push their position.

You've yet to prove otherwise so it appears to be true to me.

It's not me that is out of touch with reality. I think you better check your own hat.

[HansTWN]

Originally Posted by stonetools

Hey if folks want to believe that they are going Mano a mano with a paid agent of the evil publishing empire, well, they can go right ahead. A rich fantasy life is good for the soul. According to Kennyc and others, I am working for Apple and the publishers and amazon. Those tin foil hats must be mighty comfortable.

If you were only a reader you couldn't possibly be arguing like that. I, personally, have acknowledged that it is a good thing that we can have the books on several devices simultaneously -- something we don't have with pbooks. But that is how far the pros go for users.

You are like somebody arguing that a car that leaks oil is good for us -- hey, it has a big trunk, you can keep lots of spare oil cans in the back! DRM in its current state is designed to make you re-buy your books, it is planned obsolescence. DRM has nothing to do with piracy.

[Worldwalker]

It's a question of motivation. What benefit does DRM bring to any MobileRead user? Absolutely none. It brings some benefit to device vendors (device lock-in), to DRM vendors (Adobe gets their cut), and potentially to publishers (forcing users to re-purchase content). But there is absolutely no benefit to any user. Why does someone argue loudly and strongly against their own best interest? They don't. So therefore it's not against his best interest, which means his best interests align with those of the industry rather than with their customers. People don't advocate against their own interests. If someone appears to do so, and their actions are clear, then it must be their interest that is not what it appears to be. For Stonetools to be acting in his own best interest, that interest cannot be that of a consumer.