Why are DRM ebooks evil and why should I avoid them like the plague?

[kennyc]

Originally Posted by TheSFReader

One entirely missing point in this discussion is "Legacy" : What will we leave to our great^10 grand-children if everything is "encoded" ? What will they be able to recover from our culture ? Digital preservation and Bit Rot is already problematic in our own lifespans, but with the added DRM hurdle, we will only leave them random "bits" of information, with nothing else...
If it all continues, our descendants will be left with no "Giants" to stand on the shoulders, but only crumbling sand ... (Standing on the shoulders of giants)

As all preservation methods are looked back on as crude, perhaps to focus on building a time machine to go back and get the original in whatever form is desired.

[Elfwreck]

Originally Posted by rogue_librarian

I understand that no works will be entering the PD in the US before 2019, so a few years off still. Are you confident you'll be able to read your current set of ebooks in 2021, DRM or no DRM?

My ebooks are entirely non-DRMd, and anything I like well enough to re-read, I format-shift enough to be confident I'll be able to keep up with changing software.

There's already issues where a DRM'd ebook is sold in one country, and moved to another (perhaps someone living in London moves to Nova Scotia) where the work is in the public domain--stripping the DRM shouldn't be a problem. (Probably legally isn't; Canada doesn't have the DMCA.) 2019 may look like a while off, but it's not that far.

I don't believe Disney will succeed in another power-grab; too many politicians are aware of the problems with orphan works, and too many other groups, like the EFF, are pushing for more awareness of the problems with extended copyrights.

I wasn't planning on getting a copy of "My Struggle" anytime soon, in either pbook or ebook form.

Me either, but I expect they'd be of interest to scholars and teachers, and being in the public domain would make them much easier to share.

At this point it certainly isn't the most pressing one. But, again: even though you're free to use the text as you see fit doesn't mean your DRMed ebook has to allow for it. Large numbers of PD works are still sold, and many of these ebook versions have DRM. It's not more sinister than DRM per se, in my opinion.

It's my understanding that DRM'd PD works with no additional annotations can be freely stripped and shared; the DMCA only applies to works that are covered by copyright. And as more works start entering the public domain, it may become legal to share DRM-stripping technology for the purpose of removing DRM from books that are legal to share--the logic that worked on the Sony Betamax case: enough non-infringing activities are possible that the technology itself isn't illegal.

[Gwen Morse]

Originally Posted by stonetools

Well, I stand corrected. Still, they in fact COULD read the books on their original devices. That's not nothing. I'm going to dig into this some more, because frankly, it seems very unlike Amazon to simply say "FU" to its customers like that.
In the one example I saw where someone had trouble with Amazon DRM, Amazon refunded the customer.
I'm going to look into this, but I 'm betting that Amazon either offered a refund or offered to let the customer download the books again in the new format on proof of payment.
Stay tuned.

You can de-register specific hardware kindles from your account (happens all the time with returns).

As for the assorted "Kindle For" apps, there's an option on the Amazon site to de-register those as well. So, if your PC hard drive dies and you install the app on your new drive, you can remove the old version and keep your totals in check. Much better than expecting you to remove it from the system side (as required by other DRM schemes I've dealt with in the past).

I've had at least 10 (probably more) Kindle "devices" on my account, but never more than 4 at a time. I can still download and open every book I own on my latest PC install (earlier today).

[GreenMonkey]

Originally Posted by Elfwreck

I don't believe Disney will succeed in another power-grab; too many politicians are aware of the problems with orphan works, and too many other groups, like the EFF, are pushing for more awareness of the problems with extended copyrights.

You are much more optimistic than me. To me there is corruption rampant in politics to the point that companies have too much influence to let anything go public domain.

I'm convinced they will continue to renew and push and add things. Because they have the power and influence to get politicians to do it. And few people understand or care that copyright was originally supposed to have a flip side; that it should eventually expire, and the works become available for the good of the people.

I love groups like the EFF but they seem to have little actual power with regard to political groups and lawmaking - they seem to have a little sway with courts, but that's about it.

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by stonetools

Given the example of the music industry, there is every reason to believe that it WOULD result in a collapse in revenue.

You have to blame Apple for the music industry. Apple makes it way too easy to buy single songs. So instead of buying an entire CD for a few songs, people can just buy the songs they want. Also, if there is a rise in eBook piracy, Apple again would be the one to blame for that.

[kennyc]

Originally Posted by JSWolf

You have to blame Apple for the music industry. Apple makes it way too easy to buy single songs. So instead of buying an entire CD for a few songs, people can just buy the songs they want. Also, if there is a rise in eBook piracy, Apple again would be the one to blame for that.

Even though I despise Apple's way of doing business, even I can't put the full blame on them. I feel it is the dinosaurs of the publishing industry that are to blame for the situation we are in. They are actively fighting ebook selling in order to preserve the status quo.

[wodin]

As well they should, the ease of producing and distributing ebooks renders traditional publishers very nearly irrelevant.

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by kennyc

Even though I despise Apple's way of doing business, even I can't put the full blame on them. I feel it is the dinosaurs of the publishing industry that are to blame for the situation we are in. They are actively fighting ebook selling in order to preserve the status quo.

But Apple allowed the agency 6 to do thing the wrong way. Instead of working with them to do things properly, Apple just said, "Do what you want as long as nobody underprices us." So there you have the Agency 6 doing things wrong. Thanks Apple.

[Fbone]

Originally Posted by Elfwreck

Like George Orwell who died in 1950; 2021 will be the end of the Life+70 span?

Mahatma Gandhi, died in 1948; 2019 should see the release of his works?

Adolf Hitler, 1945... 2015 is not too far away.

The issue of ability to remove DRM from entering-public-domain works is not an abstract intellectual one. It's coming up soon in the US, and is a constant issue in other countries.

George Orwell's 1984 won't hit PD in the US until Jan 1st 2045. EU on Jan 1st 2021.

However, it's already PD in Canada, Australia, and South Africa.

[pdurrant]

Originally Posted by JSWolf

[a legal digital music store] makes it way too easy to buy single songs. So instead of buying an entire CD for a few songs, people can just buy the songs they want.

(bold added) Yes, the legal digital music store are to blame for the music industry revenues dropping. Why, if it wasn't for the digital music stores, people would have no other option but to buy albums on CD....

[stonetools]

Originally Posted by Gwen Morse

You can de-register specific hardware kindles from your account (happens all the time with returns).

As for the assorted "Kindle For" apps, there's an option on the Amazon site to de-register those as well. So, if your PC hard drive dies and you install the app on your new drive, you can remove the old version and keep your totals in check. Much better than expecting you to remove it from the system side (as required by other DRM schemes I've dealt with in the past).

I've had at least 10 (probably more) Kindle "devices" on my account, but never more than 4 at a time. I can still download and open every book I own on my latest PC install (earlier today).

Good to know. So there was in effect no issue for those involved in the 2006 Amazon DRM shift. You simply de-register your old device, re-register your new device, and viola you have access to your library on your new device. I understand now why there was virtually no outcry-except among the digerati- for Amazon's 2006 move. I also understand why it wasn't mentioned earlier-it sort of vitiates the whole "Amazon-made-this-DRM-change-and-I-was-forced-to-strip-DRM-to get access-to-my-library" argument. No you weren't forced-you violated the DRM, because you could violate the DRM and you wanted to.
I find that the anti DRM folks consistently overstate their case that DRM unduly burdens the consumer. They bang on about not being able to " lend or share" their ebooks, leaving unmentioned the fact that by "lending" or "sharing" they mean violating federal copyright law.
They also tend to deprecate the legitimate ways that IP rights holders have provided to ameliorate the problems caused by DRM.

"Can't lend books"
"Can't share books with family members"
"Can't access the books if you move to a new device"
"Can't backup/archive books"

Every one of those statements is at best, a partial untruth but they tend to be repeated, without qualifications, whenever these discussions come up.
I am more convinced than ever, that people who oppose DRM do so from purely ideological motives that have little to do with the practical effects of DRM on the consumer. And that's fine. If you truly believe that DRM, like copyright, is some kind of affront to your "ownership" rights, then argue that. Just don't try to argue that you are doing it in defense of the "average consumer" or because DRM raises insurmountable obstacles to legitimate uses of your ebooks.

[Elfwreck]

Originally Posted by stonetools

Good to know. So there was in effect no issue for those involved in the 2006 Amazon DRM shift. You simply de-register your old device, re-register your new device, and viola you have access to your library on your new device.

No, the shift was from PDF to Mobi; the same devices wouldn't work. From 2005-2007, Amazon sold heavily-DRM'd PDFs (limited downloads, limited printings); they stopped and switched to Mobi when they released the Kindle. People who bought the original Amazon PDFs lost access to them when Amazon stopped carrying them, and lost the ability to update them to a new device when Adobe changed servers. Those ebooks are now only readable on the device (computer & laptop, mostly) that originally was authorized for them.

There wasn't much outcry because ebooks were a much smaller niche, and mostly only ebook-geek-fanatics were interested in them at all. And they knew that ebooks wouldn't get bigger as long as the DRM was that troublesome. (And they were right. Newer DRM is more accessible--and therefore easier to crack.)

I find that the anti DRM folks consistently overstate their case that DRM unduly burdens the consumer.

Depends on what you think is a reasonable burden. I consider that, when I buy something, I have the right to decide how to use it. Paying extra for limitations is ridiculous.

They bang on about not being able to " lend or share" their ebooks, leaving unmentioned the fact that by "lending" or "sharing" they mean violating federal copyright law.

Amazon has, in the past, told people it's against the TOS to physically loan out Kindles to people other than the account holders--that it's illegal to allow other people to read those books, even if no copy is made.

Fictionwise has much the same statement on their site--a claim that only the buyer is allowed to read the book at all, regardless of copying.

If you truly believe that DRM, like copyright, is some kind of affront to your "ownership" rights, then argue that. Just don't try to argue that you are doing it in defense of the "average consumer" or because DRM raises insurmountable obstacles to legitimate uses of your ebooks.

It raises no obstacles to me, other than slightly limiting my book choices. I won't buy or used DRM'd ebooks... woe is me; my reading selection is limited to just a bit more than 40k options at Smashwords, 160k+ works at ArchiveofourOwn, 100k+ from Gutenberg, and something like 2 million books from Google. Oh no. How will I ever cope.

It does, however, raise obstacles for ebooks as long-term replacements for paper books. Literary culture *cannot* shift to ebooks if they can't be shared; children don't learn to love books by being limited to what their parents buy them. They borrow from uncles, from neighbors; they buy fifty-cent books at yard sales; they mark their favorite passages and hand the marked-up versions around to their friends. DRM makes it obvious that a collection-of-data is not a "book" as normal people understand books.

DRM is a minor nuisance today. If books are a form of short-term entertainment, DRM is perfectly reasonable. If, however, books are a repository of culture, a container for potentially generation-spanning truths, DRM is an abomination.

None of the DRM-inflicting companies will discuss how they expect their books to be accessed in another 10 years, much less another 50. They want customers to think of ebooks as the quick & easy entertainment, and paper books as the long-term storage device. Those of us who think of ebooks as just another container for textual content, the newest in a long line of innovations, are unwilling to believe that the purpose of copyright law is to keep paper-focused publishers from bankruptcy.

[Piper_]

Originally Posted by stonetools

Good to know. So there was in effect no issue for those involved in the 2006 Amazon DRM shift.

-snip mountainous post filled with character insults based on even more misinformation and twisting-

I've tried to think of a reply that would be short, polite, and doesn't repeat what's already been explained and ignored, but I can't.

With all due respect, I think you're either:

1. Terribly ill-informed due to being unwilling or unable to comprehend the facts and points shown through several threads.

2. Informed or intelligent enough to grasp the facts that have been given to you through several threads, but hope to smear honest people and hoodwink observers.

Whichever of the two it is, I'm going to trust that most people who come to this site won't be deceived by it.

/a person in a multi-device family, (Sony, kindle, and nook) who cannot share ebooks with them without stripping DRM. And one who knows that people were indeed harmed by Amazon's and others' changing DRM schemes, unless they had non-drm'd backups.

[stonetools]

t raises no obstacles to me, other than slightly limiting my book choices. I won't buy or used DRM'd ebooks... woe is me; my reading selection is limited to just a bit more than 40k options at Smashwords, 160k+ works at ArchiveofourOwn, 100k+ from Gutenberg, and something like 2 million books from Google. Oh no. How will I ever cope.

It does, however, raise obstacles for ebooks as long-term replacements for paper books. Literary culture *cannot* shift to ebooks if they can't be shared; children don't learn to love books by being limited to what their parents buy them. They borrow from uncles, from neighbors; they buy fifty-cent books at yard sales; they mark their favorite passages and hand the marked-up versions around to their friends. DRM makes it obvious that a collection-of-data is not a "book" as normal people understand books.

DRM is a minor nuisance today. If books are a form of short-term entertainment, DRM is perfectly reasonable. If, however, books are a repository of culture, a container for potentially generation-spanning truths, DRM is an abomination.

This is a problem that goes far beyond DRM and ebooks and applies to electronic media in general. Electronic media has ALWAYS had a problem with shifts in technology leading to obsolescence in earlier forms . Bing Crosby's " White christmas" was originally recorded on 78 rpm vinyl platters-a media form that was obsolescent before I was born and is obsolete today.
During the time I started collecting music, the form in which music was recorded went from vinyl to 8 track to minicasette to CD to MP3. And its not just music. Punch cards anyone? How about floppy disks? Betamax? Photographic plates? 35 mm film?
Ebooks are just as good -or as bad- at being a cultural repository as any other form of electronic media and are just as subject to change.
Yet people still can enjoy Bring Crosby singing " White Christmas" today, and I can still listen to the first songs that I ever bought - just in a different format.
Culture will still continue to be recorded and passed down in different ways, regardless of whether DRM or even ebooks survives.
Besides which, of course, even DRMED ebooks can be legitimately shared in numerous ways. More about that on my next post.

[DiapDealer]

More about that on my next post.

You tease, you. The suspense is killing me.