People who want no DRM are impractical dreamers...

[kennyc]

Originally Posted by jgaiser

We can't. But then they made a pretty decent living before DRM/ebooks with casual lending, used bookstores and pirating paper books with scanners. Why are things different now.

Because the copying or property is easier when it is digital.

Not everyone had/has a copy machine that can easily copy books, but everyone has a copy machine that can copy files.

[stonetools]

But in the case of ebooks the solution is simple, remove the DRM and format shift as you see fit, read on the device of your choice.

Well, that's a simple solution- for nerds like you and me. All that's just gibberish to Grandma.
The plain fact is that Grandma is totally happy just buying her Amazon books from Kindle. That's all she knows to do, and all she wants to do. Its only nerdy grandson who gets excited about not being able to shift formats because of that @#$%^ DRM :-).

[toddos]

Originally Posted by stonetools

I must say, that this and many other posts seem to be saying "DRM is an annoyance to me. They should get rid of it and if it means that the livelihods of people in the publishing industry are undermined, well, f**k 'em. "
This is not a winning argument IMO.

Why do I care if people in the publishing industry are undermined? It's not my job to prop up their bad business model. Should we still be forced to buy buggy whips to go with our horseless cars? Should I be forced to buy an analog telephone modem with my PC?

If people in the publishing industry want to maintain their livelihood, they need to evolve. When there are no printing or paper costs in publishing an ebook, should I feel bad that an ebook-only publisher doesn't pay money to printing presses?

You do not have a right to a business model. What worked 20, 10, or even 5 years ago may not work today. Just because it was a good model yesterday doesn't mean it's a good model today or forever.

[stonetools]

Because the copying or property is easier when it is digital.

Well you hit it on the head . Its one thing to pass around a book to household members or a friend. Is a whole nother ball game when I buy an ebestseller, keep the original, and email a copy to 25 of my Facebook friends, who email copies to THEIR friends, and so on.

I think even the most anti DRM person in the world might understand why an author or publisher may be concerned about that.

[stonetools]

Why do I care if people in the publishing industry are undermined? .

Well, they could just not write or publish books anymore, which means that we'll be just reduced to reading each other's comments.

I think everyone who likes to read lots of good books has a vested interst in a flourishinbg book business

[EowynCarter]

Originally Posted by stonetools

Well, that's a simple solution- for nerds like you and me. All that's just gibberish to Grandma.
The plain fact is that Grandma is totally happy just buying her Amazon books from Kindle. That's all she knows to do, and all she wants to do. Its only nerdy grandson who gets excited about not being able to shift formats because of that @#$%^ DRM :-).

When I fist bought an reader it was the cybook gen 3 using .prc.

Then, the french publishers wakes up, and decide to use ePub as this format. Bookeen fixed the first problem by publishing an update. But the only reason I can still read the books i bought as mobi is that I was able to get rid of DRM.

[jgaiser]

Originally Posted by stonetools

Well you hit it on the head . Its one thing to pass around a book to household members or a friend. Is a whole nother ball game when I buy an ebestseller, keep the original, and email a copy to 25 of my Facebook friends, who email copies to THEIR friends, and so on.

I think even the most anti DRM person in the world might understand why an author or publisher may be concerned about that.

Ummm.. But you quoted a publishing executive up-thread who stated that the DRM'd books *are not* showing up on the darknet, just scanned paper books.

Could you or the publishers provide some data about the amount of casual lending of ebooks? My experience is pretty small, but my circle of friends don't generally share ebooks. Paper on the other hand is different. And yes I understand that digital copies are easy to duplicate multiple times.

[Elfwreck]

Originally Posted by stonetools

OK, I asked a staight forward question above and so far no one has answered it or even tried to answer it (although they have been busy trying to point out that a lock is NOT EXACTLY like DRM). Here is the the question again:
Can we assure that writers and publishers can make a good living in a post DRM world?

As much as we can assure they will ever make a good living, sure. There's no guarantee any particular author or publisher will be financially successful, but we've got strong indications that neither of those will become nonviable careers in the future.

However, the shape of the industry may go through some rather drastic changes, and many currently viable authors & publishers may find themselves broke. This happened when radio took off--all of a sudden, in-person performers whose vocal quality wasn't great but who had great stage presence were less likely to make a living than those who could sing well, but looked awful and just stood in front of the mic like a tree.

The traits of "successful author" may change, but the ability to create a good story will still be marketable, and there'll still be a market for people who edit & distribute those stories.

There is *no* indication that selling ebooks without DRM is less successful than selling them with. The stores that sell without DRM are not failing faster than the others; the books sold without DRM are not selling less copies than those with DRM.

Before we answer that lets hear what the publishers actually think about DRM (Yes, I know its strange to actually listen to what other side says, but bear with me)

Eleven of the 13 agreed with me that DRM is necessary to protect sales. Ten of the 13 agreed with me that DRM is not an effective deterrent to piracy. And 12 of the 13 agreed with me that DRM’s main benefit is to prevent casual sharing!

There's no proof, no solid evidence even, that DRM protects sales. That customers buy more because they can't share. Killing casual sharing is killing the person-to-person promo aspects that have always sold more books in the long run.

I'm confused too. Apparently, it's scanners, not software, that are the main piracy problem.

Bootleg ebooks are more than 15 years old; people started scanning or typing them into computers as soon as the net, before the www, became active.

Publishers who started selling ebooks two years ago think that they're combating a *new* habit.

The writer (and at least one agent) bnelieves that the main way DRM works to protect sales is to prevent casual sharing, ie. passing your ebook along to friends and family. The agent supported DRM for best sellers alone.
Finally, here's the take from a publisher:
The whole world is moving away from download and own, so DRM is a moot point — only the library fanatics and the digerati care.[/quote]

The "whole world" is not. Certain areas of business are under the impression that people no longer care about having permanent access to their purchases, but plenty of us don't trust Google, Amazon and B&N to be around in 10 or 15 years when we're fondly remembering a much-liked book and want to re-read it.

And getting rid of the family-and-friends sharing is a great way to kill future sales by that author.

Oh, and the claim, “of the key titles of ours that have been pirated, all have been scans or electronic copies of MS, none have been DRM protected eBooks” -- how would they know? If the DRM was cracked, and the file converted to another format, how do they check if it's the same file? Line-by-line proofing to match the typos? Unless maybe all their "key titles" aren't available as ebooks.

[pdurrant]

Originally Posted by stonetools

Can we assure that writers and publishers can make a good living in a post DRM world?

Yes, we can. As much as anyone can be sure of anything about the future.

[queentess]

Originally Posted by stonetools

OK, I asked a staight forward question above and so far no one has answered it or even tried to answer it (although they have been busy trying to point out that a lock is NOT EXACTLY like DRM). Here is the the question again:
Can we assure that writers and publishers can make a good living in a post DRM world?

Your original question goes on to say "1."Somehow, we will find way to compensate writers and publishers". "

I answered. But I guess I was being too logical to provoke a response.

Originally Posted by queentess

Uhh... by buying their work? I don't understand people who think that removing DRM is the equivalent of giving away everything for free. It's not. Not everyone is sitting behind their monitor cackling madly and downloading free books. It's just making it easier for honest people to buy the books.

[stonetools]

Could you or the publishers provide some data about the amount of casual lending of ebooks? My experience is pretty small, but my circle of friends don't generally share ebooks.

And why do you think that is?

I agree that I would like to see more evidence about the casual sharing of e books.

[stonetools]

I answered. But I guess I was being too logical to provoke a response.

Well you did answer. But I was looking for "serious, detailed answer" .The mere fact that you would continue to buy their work doesn't fully answer the question of whether writers and publishers can make a good living in a post DRM world. But hey, if that's the best you can do, well, thanks for playing.

[pdurrant]

Originally Posted by stonetools

And why do you think that is?

My friends and I don't regularly share ebooks we buy because we know it's not right to do so, not because of DRM. Any DRMed ebook I buy gets its DRM stripped first thing.

Saying that without DRM, most people would suddenly stop buying ebooks and share each others' ebooks instead, reminds me of religious people who argue that without a belief in God, most people would go around stealing, raping and murdering.

I don't think either scenario bears any resemblance to reality.

[kennyc]

Originally Posted by stonetools

Well you did answer. But I was looking for "serious, detailed answer" .The mere fact that you would continue to buy their work doesn't fully answer the question of whether writers and publishers can make a good living in a post DRM world. But hey, if that's the best you can do, well, thanks for playing.

No need to be an ass.

[kennyc]

Originally Posted by stonetools

Or so says the KindleReviewer here:
http://ireaderreview.com/2011/03/16/...y-10/#comments

I know there are a whole lot of people here who regard DRM as the spawn of Satan, but he does make forceful arguments. Money quote:



HE also opposes unrestricted lending of books. He says both these impractical proposals are based on an unrealistic "perfect world full of perfect reader" scenarios. How right is he?

So here's my answer -- as I've said a couple of times in a couple of ways already:

He's WRONG. End of story, end of thread.

All it takes is a simple glance at history to prove it.

The problem is with the publishers and their pathetic attempts to protect their dinosaur business model instead of adapting.