Will the next booming profession be copy editor?

[DMcCunney]

Originally Posted by greencat

I don't think the next booming profession will be copy editor as companies are looking at reducing the rates they want to pay for many of the reasons outlined above.

It is also fairly difficult work requiring lots of concentration. Sadly it is not the kind of job where you can goof off for a few hours and no-one will notice.=

And in many cases, doing it right requires specialized knowledge of the subject the book is about.

I can see a rise in hobbyist copy editors/proofers. Basically these will be people who might have read your book anyway and in exchange for a credit/small sum/free copy/early access will spot the glaring stuff. Perhaps the 80/20 rule might start to apply - ie if most of your amateurs don't spot the error then most of the population won't either. Books might go through beta cycles - pay a dollar for a uncorrected version and get it now or a five when it's complete. Indie authors/small publishers with small dedicated followings might well start taking advantage of this kind of crowdsourcing.

They might indeed. But one thing that occurred to me is how critical this stuff might be for most readers.

I take my SO as an example. She reads a lot - usually a book a day, sometimes more. But for the most part, she doesn't re-read. Books are disposable commodities for her. And she reads quickly enough that errors have to be really glaring to be noticed - she'll automatically correct to what it's supposed to be by reflex and may not notice something's wrong.

For folks like that, crowdsourced copy editing/proofreading might be adequate, as they won't need it perfect, just good enough.

Outsourcing overseas? Often local English is significantly different than British or US English. I think increasing software based automation is likely though.

So do I, though you'll run into the limitations of automated processing.
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Dennis

[DMcCunney]

Originally Posted by Mortis

So how do the authors submit the final "Book" in these cases, if on paper, it still needs to be input to a digital format.

The normal starting point is a Microsoft Word document.

If the work is independently-published, wouldn't the author do the editing and proofing or would they hire someone to do it?

Genuinely curious

Generally the former, as few will be willing to pay for the latter. And all too many aren't aware that they need editing or proofing.
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Dennis

[DMcCunney]

Originally Posted by Mortis

I've worked in the Publishing industry for the past 20 years and I honestly don't understand why there is a problem with the editing/fprmating of e-books, the same files used for the original p-book should be used for the e-book. I can go back through almost 20 years of material and pull out thousands of magazines that would only have to be repackaged to be sold as ebooks.

I wish it were so simple.

In many cases, older books date from times when the normal submission was a hardcopy manuscript, which was rekeyed by a typesetter for publication.

Even if the manuscript was electronic to begin with, what format was it? What reads it now? And the files for the pbook won't be the manuscript - they'll be what got sent to the printer. These days, that's a PDF generated by InDesign. Before that, stuff prepared for the printer was done in Quark eXpress. Before that, it might have been Ventura.

I look forward to the day when everyone has standardized on well formed XML as the underslying storage format, but I'm not holding my breath. It will require investment in a new toolchain, changes in existing workflow, and learning to use the new tools by those responsible for production.

While I don't work in the book publishing industry, my understanding is that it would be the same; any book in print should have the digital files to create ebooks, it's not like we are stilling using movable type.

See above. A lot of the books produced as a result of the "I'd like to read this book in a Kindle edition" button presses on Amazon don't have electronic files available. They get produced by an outsourced Indian operation who scans a hardcopy. OCRs, and packages the result as a Kindle file.

I suspect the main reason is that the publishers are trying to save some money and sending the final print out to be scanned rather than digging up the press files, or the publishes are getting their files from someone else, ie off the net? Just a thought.
If someone can explain it, I'm sure I'm not the only one thats curious as to why the formating in ebooks are such garbage (in some cases).

It's a combination of factors.

Right now, the standard workflow in publishing is that a manuscript is delivered in Microsoft Word format. This is edited, copy edited, and proofread until an approved final copy is ready. That gets imported to Adode InDesign for typesetting and markup. The output from InDesign is a PDF file that goes to the printer, who feeds it to an imagesetter that generates the plates the book will be printed from.

PDF is a poor format for most ebooks, so production of an ebook requires extra steps. (And many folks are still learning how to do that right.) InDesign can generate ePub files, but does not currently do it well enough for publication. If it did, workflow might be "Save As PDF for Printer, Save As ePub for eBook", with conversion to other ebook formats like Amazon's handled by scripted conversion.
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Dennis

[MikeFromHC]

Originally Posted by rhadin

<snip>
...and that relying on spellcheck and similar automated programs is more than sufficient.

Absolutely. I see no need for more than a good spell checker and here is proof.

Eye halve a spelling chequer
It came with my pea sea
It plainly marques four my revue
Miss steaks eye kin knot sea.

Eye strike a key and type a word
And weight four it two say
Weather eye am wrong oar write
It shows me strait a weigh.

As soon as a mist ache is maid
It nose bee fore two long
And eye can put the error rite
Its rare lea ever wrong.

Eye have run this poem threw it
I am shore your pleased two no
Its letter perfect awl the weigh
My chequer tolled me sew.

(My spell checker told me that "chequer" was spelled wrong...)

[Hatgirl]

Oh, Mike, that's brilliant! Who wrote it, was it you?

Anyway...

I was poking about a new ebook store, Wizard's Tower Press, and spotted they had a short blog about editing. Interesting!

From what I can see, there is a world of difference between a copy editor and an editor. Copy editing could be, if not a booming profession, perhaps a cottage industry. But editing... that's a whole different ball game.

[DMcCunney]

Originally Posted by Hatgirl

From what I can see, there is a world of difference between a copy editor and an editor. Copy editing could be, if not a booming profession, perhaps a cottage industry. But editing... that's a whole different ball game.

There is indeed, and it's critical to keep the distinctions straight.

In this thread, editor, copy editor, and proofreader have been tossed around interchangeably, and they aren't.

For decent overviews of the jobs of the copy editor and the proofreader, see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copy_editing and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proofreading.

When we say editor, we are talking about someone performing the task of acquiring the book in the first place (often called a commissioning editor), and working with the author on the acquired manuscript to improve it prior to publication (often called developmental editing.) These tasks may actually be performed by different people, with the editor who buys the book for the publisher in the first place handing it off to someone else for development, but for fiction, it's usually the same person.

Publishers are increasingly skimping on these things in attempts to cut costs, with proofreading the first to be dropped.
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Dennis

[DavidI]

I don't think it's going to be the hot new field. I suspect most new self-published authors are going to see editing as a luxury and not a neccessity, so they will rely on their own skills to self-edit. I suspect some will do a better job than others, but I also suspect that many authors will be right, and they'll do just fine without editors.

[sfweb]

very nice post

Originally Posted by rhadin

1. I edit a lot of education material written by teachers -- active and retired -- for teachers, not for the consumer, and it is the rare teacher who has adequate skills to be a competent editor. Most have very rudimentary grammar and spelling skills today, and their prose reflects the Twitter effect, not the skills of a grammarian.

2. Most professional editors do not work in plush Manhattan offices; I haven't for 26 years. Most do work out of their homes in dedicated office spaces. Editorial services are professional services and cost money. It is no different than going to a doctor who has his/her office in his/her home rather than in the medical high-rise down the street. You pay for the doctor's expertise, skill, and knowledge, not for the location of the office. Similarly, a writer pays for editorial services, not for the location of the office.

3. I assume then that you think the editors who work on James Patterson's books should be paid millions of dollars for their services because Patterson earns millions of dollars as an author. Somehow I don't think Patterson -- or any other author -- would agree, believing that their success is largely a result of their creativity.

I wonder if you tell your auto mechanic that you refuse to pay his/her hourly rate because it is higher than yours?

[MrsJoseph]

I read an indie author book not too long ago. I loved the idea, I loved the plot, and I enjoyed most of the author's writing BUT he could certainly use a good editor! I can't see authors getting away with not having an editor as the indie market slowly becomes more mainstream.

[RolandD]

Originally Posted by JeremyR

It's funny though, I literally just bought a book of short stories (on it's way in the mail) whose sole claim to fame really is that they actually haven't been edited.

Or rather, were edited once, but now have been painstakingly restored to the author's original words (by looking at original typed drafts). And every typo correction is noted in the back in an appendix.

Piers Anthony's But, What of Earth? is interesting to read for the same reason. After four editors were done with it, it barely resembled his original MS. Once he had the money, he reacquired the rights and published it with an appendix and commentary on the changes that were made.

Originally Posted by greencat

I can see a rise in hobbyist copy editors/proofers. Basically these will be people who might have read your book anyway and in exchange for a credit/small sum/free copy/early access will spot the glaring stuff. Perhaps the 80/20 rule might start to apply - ie if most of your amateurs don't spot the error then most of the population won't either. Books might go through beta cycles - pay a dollar for a uncorrected version and get it now or a five when it's complete. Indie authors/small publishers with small dedicated followings might well start taking advantage of this kind of crowdsourcing.

I'm surprised that no one has volunteered to be a hobbyist copy editor. The author and the editor would have to agree on terms. I like the idea of a per page rate, say $.25-.50 per page. The author could 'audition' prospective editors by sending them a chapter to be edited pro bono. This would give the editor an idea of how much work it would be to edit and the price could be set accordingly. It would also give the author an idea of the quality of editing. Once terms were agreed, the entire manuscript would be sent to the editor along with a down payment of 25% with the balance due upon return of the edited manuscript. A second edit after author corrections and comments, would be at the discount rate of $.10-.15 per page.

[Maggie Leung]

Originally Posted by RolandD

I'm surprised that no one has volunteered to be a hobbyist copy editor. The author and the editor would have to agree on terms. I like the idea of a per page rate, say $.25-.50 per page. The author could 'audition' prospective editors by sending them a chapter to be edited pro bono. This would give the editor an idea of how much work it would be to edit and the price could be set accordingly. It would also give the author an idea of the quality of editing. Once terms were agreed, the entire manuscript would be sent to the editor along with a down payment of 25% with the balance due upon return of the edited manuscript. A second edit after author corrections and comments, would be at the discount rate of $.10-.15 per page.

Lol. Maybe someone in a developing country would be willing to edit for that kind of "pay."

[RolandD]

Originally Posted by HarryT

I guess it depends what your idea of a "ridiculous fee" is. Personally I don't consider, say, $50/hr to be an unreasonable fee for a skilled task such as proofreading. If it takes 10h to proof-read an average novel, $500 doesn't seem a great deal of money to spend if you're serious about writing as a career. There are very few careers in which you don't have to invest money in training yourself.

Originally Posted by Maggie Leung

Lol. Maybe someone in a developing country would be willing to edit for that kind of "pay."

I have no idea what a professional copy editor makes, but I was referring to someone copy editing as a hobby. Using my model, a 400 page manuscript would cost $100-200 to be edited. If it takes ten hours, that's $10-20 an hour. Not to shabby for a hobby. I would do it for that, but I may be way off on the time involved.

[Maggie Leung]

Originally Posted by RolandD

I have no idea what a professional copy editor makes, but I was referring to someone copy editing as a hobby. Using my model, a 400 page manuscript would cost $100-200 to be edited. If it takes ten hours, that's $10-20 an hour. Not to shabby for a hobby. I would do it for that, but I may be way off on the time involved.

Yes, your time is way off.

[RolandD]

So, how long would it take?

[Maggie Leung]

Originally Posted by RolandD

So, how long would it take?

Since you're offering services, how long does it take you to read a book? Then estimate how long it would take you to edit one page, say if I gave you a letter to edit. Then multiply that by 400 and factor in that you'd have to look up stuff, leave notes where stuff doesn't make sense, consult with the author, etc.

If you're going to edit 400 pages in 10 hours, how much time are you going to spend per page? You will have less than two minutes per page to do all of the above.