Book piracy: Less DRM, more data

[elcreative]

NVash... suspect it is probably influenced by the bean counters tending to run large companies... back catalog means major sales already done so financially more sense to concentrate on newer titles... hey, nobody ever said sense was involved...

[CWatkinsNash]

Originally Posted by Catlady

There's another thread right now about the unavailability of Rebecca in a legit e-book form--or any of Daphne du Maurier's works, for that matter. It's a classic, it's still in print, so obviously people are still interested in it--but to read it on a device, you have to go over to the dark side. How many potential customers have been lost already? How many will then buy it for $15or so when it finally does become available?

One of the problems in cases like this one is that we don't even really know who is responsible. It's easy enough to find out who holds or held most recent publishing rights, but we generally don't know the contract specifics. I imagine some of these classics-in-copyright are caught up in rights issues. Others may have recently reverted or will soon.

[Steven Lyle Jordan]

Originally Posted by jgaiser

*Nobody* knows, because *nobody* is tracking the data. It's just easier and safer to complain about how much the publishing industry is losing than finding out it may not be as bad as we hear and in fact *may* have a positive effect.

O'Leary also indicated that even those trying to track the data could not, due to the nebulous nature of the web, torrents, etc. I think it's safe to say that the existing web (with its presently wide-open architecture) will never give us concrete numbers, only the vaguest of approximations and a lot of supposition based on heresay and anecdote... IOW, guesstimations.

Waiting until someone has concrete numbers to go on is an experiment in futility and frustration, and it's ducking the point. This isn't a numbers issue, it's a cultural issue as significant to our era as the shift to treating slaves as people. We don't need data, we need discussion.

[jgaiser]

Originally Posted by Steven Lyle Jordan

Waiting until someone has concrete numbers to go on is an experiment in futility and frustration, and it's ducking the point. This isn't a numbers issue, it's a cultural issue as significant to our era as the shift to treating slaves as people. We don't need data, we need discussion.

But it *is* a numbers issue. Without some kind of numbers, you as an author and the publishing industry are all just making guesses about your losses. The fact that your books are available on the darknet provides no usable correlation to loses.

I understand your frustration as an author, but pirating is not going away.

[ProfCrash]

There are statisitical models that can be used to figure out how much data is actually missing and fill in the gaps based on that information. Models that deal with truncated and censored data are pretty sophisticated and can give some solid understanding of what the big picture looks like.

[etienne66]

My biggest problem with them placing DRM on backlist books is that they are running them through an automated process and then charging $8 for their incompetence. They could at least knock it down to $2.99 for such shabby work, then I wouldn't feel like I wasn't taken so badly.

Why not setup something like Project Gutenberg Distributed Proofreaders? Many people would do the proofreading just for getting free copies of books that they want. It would increase the quality of the final product and still not raise the costs of bringing the backlist books to market. Then you could charge $2.99 for a quality product and if you removed geo-restrictions and DRM people wouldn't be going to the DarkNet as much to get their books because they would be getting their money's worth.

I'm only saying older backlist books should be $2.99, newer books should cost more. However I still think the eBook should not cost more than the paper version currently out.

And I don't think the "Agency Model" is legal. To me it seems monopolistic, but then again copyright is a monopoly that is granted to the author for not only his life, but 70 years after he is dead in the United States. Of course I have to wonder how this is to encourage a writer to write more novels after he is dead. By the time the copyright runs out on a novel, not only is the author dead, but quite likely the only survivors are their great-great-grandchildren.

Etienne66

[MovieBird]

Originally Posted by Steven Lyle Jordan

Waiting until someone has concrete numbers to go on is an experiment in futility and frustration, and it's ducking the point. This isn't a numbers issue, it's a cultural issue as significant to our era as the shift to treating slaves as people. We don't need data, we need discussion.

It's very easy for you, as an author, to get an idea of how widespread your book piracy is. Look for all torrents that are for solely one book, authored by you. Compilations don't matter, because people may download the whole thing but only intend to read one or two books. Or none at all.

Now that you've found those single torrent books, look at the number of times it's been successfully downloaded. Many people start a download and never finish. Good, now you've got some number of completed downloads on single book torrents, indicating interest in your book. Contrast that to how many you sold since that torrent was put up.

Some of those sales may be because of trying it out first in torrent form. You may have missed some torrents. But it's fairly easy to get an approximation of pirate action specifically targeting your work.

And yet, these numbers are never published in a logical manner...

[GA Russell]

Originally Posted by etienne66

And I don't think the "Agency Model" is legal.

I have a couple of doubts about the current situation.

The first is that the Agency 5 books cost the same, don't they? Don't the Agency 5 new best seller eBooks all cost $12? That sounds like collusion to me.

The second is that if I am dissatisfied, currently my recourse is to go to Amazon. But with an agent (think of a realtor for example), I should be going back to the publisher. I'll have to think that through, but my first impression is that Amazon does not behave like an agent just because it is allowing the publisher to set the price.

PS - When you buy a house, you make the check out to the seller. But when you buy an Agency 5 eBook, your credit card is charged to Amazon, not the publisher.

[Steven Lyle Jordan]

Originally Posted by jgaiser

But it *is* a numbers issue. Without some kind of numbers, you as an author and the publishing industry are all just making guesses about your losses.

Then we'll always be guessing, because the numbers will always be vague approximations. That might be adequate for some models, but I don't think it will ever be acceptable for ebooks. It's the wrong metric... like using bandwidth to measure TV show popularity.

It makes more sense to study and address the whys of piracy... why the industry and the consumers can't get on the same page, and what it'll take from both sides to get them there. That's the only way to bring losses under control and keep it under control (not stop it, but manage it).

[Elfwreck]

Originally Posted by GA Russell

The first is that the Agency 5 books cost the same, don't they? Don't the Agency 5 new best seller eBooks all cost $12? That sounds like collusion to me.

MMPBs have often been the same price across several publishers. I think that's less likely collusion (or less likely to stand up in court as collusion) and more likely to be considered "finding a marketing point that works."

The second is that if I am dissatisfied, currently my recourse is to go to Amazon. But with an agent (think of a realtor for example), I should be going back to the publisher. I'll have to think that through, but my first impression is that Amazon does not behave like an agent just because it is allowing the publisher to set the price.

I'm not sure Amazon is acting as a legal agent; it's required to use "agency pricing," which may not put them in the position of "agent."

OTOH, the terms of being an "agent" can vary widely by contract, and can include the agent taking money into its accounts and forwarding the appropriate amount later to the seller.

I have some vague hopes that, in the long run, Amazon fights against this "agency" thing by making it obvious which books are agency (more than by tagging them with "publisher sets the price"), possibly by changing how they show up in search engines, or changing the kind of support offered for them. (I.e. "no refunds on these books; we'll tell you how to contact the publisher if you've got a complaint.")

[NVash]

Originally Posted by Steven Lyle Jordan

Waiting until someone has concrete numbers to go on is an experiment in futility and frustration, and it's ducking the point. This isn't a numbers issue, it's a cultural issue as significant to our era as the shift to treating slaves as people. We don't need data, we need discussion.

I think were beyond data and beyond discussion. Weve been discussing this forever. The publishers know what people want, they just dont want to give it.

Im wondering though, whos discussing what? People discussing things with the publisher? That wont go well at all, theyre stuck in their ways. They seem to be doing a combination of encouraging piracy and discouraging ebooks and dont care at all. I dont even know what there is to discuss anymore.

Originally Posted by jgaiser

But it *is* a numbers issue. Without some kind of numbers, you as an author and the publishing industry are all just making guesses about your losses. The fact that your books are available on the darknet provides no usable correlation to loses.

Just a question. Lets say they get numbers and they find that piracy actually helps them. What do you think the reaction would be? IIRC thats exactly what happened to the music industry but nothing has changed at all. Arent they still blaming pirates for low sales?

Another question is say they get numbers and find out piracy doesnt affect them either way. Then what?

They get other numbers that say piracy steals sales. Then what? Theyve been saying that for years, it apparently hasnt helped anyone. What is the purpose of these numbers? Why do they need them? Theres only three outcomes I can see. It either helps them, does nothing at all, or steals sales. I cant think of what theyd do either way besides sit there, continue to blame piracy and stay in the same spot where they are now.

[GA Russell]

Originally Posted by Elfwreck

MMPBs have often been the same price across several publishers. I think that's less likely collusion (or less likely to stand up in court as collusion) and more likely to be considered "finding a marketing point that works."

But Elfwreck, they haven't been looking for the marketing point. They all decided that from the first day of agency pricing, their books would be $12.

It seems to me that if there were no collusion and they were interested in finding that marketing point, some books would be priced at $11, some $12 and some $13. Then they could study sales reports and make adjustments.

[luvshihtzu]

Yesterday I was going to purchase a two book backlist series written several years ago. Thought it would be worth paying at least $5 or $6 each. Off I went to Amazon where the books were priced at $11.99 for the Kindle versions and $5.47 for a brand new hardcover. Found my electronic copies elsewhere. One was from Overdrive and the other one was not.

[Steven Lyle Jordan]

Originally Posted by NVash

I think were beyond data and beyond discussion. Weve been discussing this forever. The publishers know what people want, they just dont want to give it.

Im wondering though, whos discussing what? People discussing things with the publisher? That wont go well at all, theyre stuck in their ways. They seem to be doing a combination of encouraging piracy and discouraging ebooks and dont care at all. I dont even know what there is to discuss anymore.

Okay, let's think about that. Seriously, a publisher is in business to make money, and the happier their customers are, the more they buy, and the more money they'll make. Of course they care about that... it's how they make money.

I think publishers want to give customers what they want--if they can, and I think most of us agree the problems aren't insurmountable--yet customer behavior (ie pirating) makes them fearful of losing their shirts. And since ebooks in general haven't reached profitable numbers yet, as print books decline in popularity, that's a legitimate concern.

And as I've illustrated, simply giving customers good quality product, low prices, multiple formats, no restrictions and no DRM is no guarantee they won't be pirated.

Beyond guesstimation numbers, what publishers need is an assurance that they can sell a product that will make them a profit, and not cost them too much in loss. If the steps I outlined in the paragraph above aren't working to deter piracy, what will? What will make consumers, who know they can pretty much pirate with impunity (and therefore they do), willingly stop pirating it?

[Soldim]

Originally Posted by Steven Lyle Jordan

That's the only way to bring losses under control and keep it under control

That's assuming there's losses; maybe you guys all win out!