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Old 10-08-2010, 04:10 PM   #61
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Old 10-08-2010, 04:11 PM   #62
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some people believe chritstianity is irrational, some believe paganism, some muslim... who is to decide?
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Old 10-08-2010, 04:26 PM   #63
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some people believe chritstianity is irrational, some believe paganism, some muslim... who is to decide?
Anybody who can think rationally.

Deciding what is rational *should* be easy. Hint: beliefs without any evidence whatsoever to support them are not rational.

Would you call belief in elves rational?
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Old 10-08-2010, 04:30 PM   #64
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Would you call belief in elves rational?
Who cares what is rational/irrational as long as it is harmless to our society?
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Old 10-08-2010, 04:35 PM   #65
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some people believe chritstianity is irrational, some believe paganism, some muslim... who is to decide?
The problem isn't with the rationality, or lack thereof, of the beliefs. It's with the harmful actions taken because of the irrational beliefs. There's a limit to how much we allow a person's beliefs to excuse harmful behavior.

Force their kids to wear uncomfortable clothes? Okay. Scarves, turbans, plaid skirts in winter: all acceptable.
Force their kids to wear clothes that make their bodies unable to grow properly? Not okay. No foot binding, regardless of how important it is to your religion.

Force the neighbors to listen to annoying & disruptive chanting they don't want? Okay. For some levels of "annoying and disruptive."
Force the neighbors' garden to live without sunlight? Not okay; no building an 80' wall to the glory of your god.

Tell the person on the street that they're condemned to eternal punishment, hoping to shame and depress them into converting? Okay.
Start that punishment yourself, with fists? Not okay.
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Old 10-08-2010, 04:37 PM   #66
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Who cares what is rational/irrational as long as it is harmless to our society?
First: belief in elves was a (hopefully easy to understand) example of an irrational beliefs. As far as I know, that particular belief never caused anybody to commit murder.

Second: I would argue that the idea that there is nothing wrong with irrational beliefs and that they deserve respect is harmful to society as a whole.

People who believe in elves with their magical healing spells, or gods with their divine healing powers, are more likely to let their children die from easily treatable conditions.

People who believe in elves with their forest magic, or gods who are close to destroying the world, are less likely to care about protecting our environment by mundane means.
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Old 10-08-2010, 04:41 PM   #67
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Who cares what is rational/irrational as long as it is harmless to our society?
But it isn't harmless, astra, when politicians suppress scientific research because it goes against their "religious beliefs". Until recently, I understand that the US government would not fund any research into stem cells precisely because of religious objections, despite it being an area that has a huge potential for benefiting society. That's why most of the advances in the field have been made in Europe, where no such suppression of research exists.
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Old 10-08-2010, 04:43 PM   #68
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Who cares what is rational/irrational as long as it is harmless to our society?
How can you know that it is harmless? Who is deciding if it is harmless?
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Old 10-08-2010, 04:45 PM   #69
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At least some who hold religious beliefs are well aware how irrational they are.

The solution? Vilifying rationality. Is that harmless?

http://i.imgur.com/pDV1E.jpg
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Old 10-08-2010, 04:49 PM   #70
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How can you know that it is harmless? Who is deciding if it is harmless?
I decide for myself.
A suicide bomber on the same bus as I am is a harm. An Afrikan who chops off thief's arm in Ethiopia is harmless.
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Old 10-08-2010, 04:50 PM   #71
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But it isn't harmless, astra, when politicians suppress scientific research because it goes against their "religious beliefs". Until recently, I understand that the US government would not fund any research into stem cells precisely because of religious objections, despite it being an area that has a huge potential for benefiting society. That's why most of the advances in the field have been made in Europe, where no such suppression of research exists.
I must agree. It is a good example of religious bigotry.
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Old 10-08-2010, 04:52 PM   #72
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The problem isn't with the rationality, or lack thereof, of the beliefs. It's with the harmful actions taken because of the irrational beliefs. There's a limit to how much we allow a person's beliefs to excuse harmful behavior.
Exactly-- getting back to the side issue of the teacher (temporarily) fired for his beliefs-- the University's first concern needs to be their students. Having a teacher on staff who has expressed explicitly that he believes a class of students are "immoral" and "wrong" and "against natural law" for nothing more than being who they are is harmful behavior. Those students wouldn't feel comfortable taking classes from such a professor and likely wouldn't have a positive opinion of a university that employs someone like that. It is harmful to the students in question, it is therefore harmful to the student body in general, and therefore it is harmful to the university itself to employ someone who openly expresses such views. That is the heart of the issue. No school should be required to employ someone who openly condemns an entire class of students, and no students should be required to take classes from such a professor (and if that is the only instructor for that subject at that school, it is a de facto requirement.)

It reminds me of this very similar issue:

http://www.religiondispatches.org/di...judge_says_no/

http://www.moonbattery.com/archives/...ian-stude.html

And, well, this guy:

http://blogs.suntimes.com/ebert/page...t-atorney.html
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Old 10-08-2010, 04:54 PM   #73
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I decide for myself.
A suicide bomber on the same bus as I am is a harm. An Afrikan who chops off thief's arm in Ethiopia is harmless.
And I decide for myself that irrational beliefs should be minimised because that reduces the harm of irrational beliefs. I even think it is easy to argue convincingly for that opinion.
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Old 10-08-2010, 04:54 PM   #74
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People who believe in elves with their magical healing spells, or gods with their divine healing powers, are more likely to let their children die from easily treatable conditions.
People who are prayed for are healthier. Maybe. Results are mixed. Turning *away* from medicine gets harmful results, but combining it with prayer doesn't hurt, and may help.

Of course, most of the results are meaningless if you think "quality of life" is irrelevant.
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Old 10-08-2010, 05:18 PM   #75
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Or the total opposite:

http://friendlyatheist.com/2009/05/1...t-the-results/
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