British Library books go digital

nekokami · 10-01-2007, 01:59 PM

More than 100,000 old books previously unavailable to the public will go online thanks to a mass digitization program at the British Library.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/7018210.stm

Interesting quote: "What we can read now is predetermined by a long tradition of what has been considered great literature.... By digitising the whole collection, we give access to the books without the filter of later judgments, whether based on taste or on the economics of printing and publishing."

Steven Lyle Jordan · 10-01-2007, 03:13 PM

I say, good show.

NatCh · 10-01-2007, 04:08 PM

Here, here! Cheerio, and all that!

JSWolf · 10-01-2007, 04:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NatCh

Here, here! Cheerio, and all that!

Now I just have to get my son-in-law to download them for me. He lives in Scotland.

petermillard · 10-01-2007, 04:49 PM

<sigh>

I'm sure the Brits (Pip! Pip!) on this board would be happy to help out - up to a point, of course...

And good to see the Great British Understatement in full flow...

"For example, authors who were only ever published outside the great centres of literary life have tended not to remain in print and have often been forgotten..."

So, nothing whatsoever to do with the money-grubbing, snouts-in-the-trough, avaricious nature of publishers, salesmen (sorry, agents), lawyers (sorry, agents) and bankers (sorry, lawyers) then..?

</sigh>

RWood · 10-01-2007, 05:06 PM

Well, at least we know what Harry's next 100,000 ebook uploads will be.

astra · 10-02-2007, 05:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RWood

Well, at least we know what Harry's next 100,000 ebook uploads will be.

Ha-ha!

grimo1re · 10-02-2007, 07:11 AM

Why only available in Britain? If they really wanted to give 'forgotten' authors a 'whole new readership' they'd make it available internationally.

andym · 10-02-2007, 09:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by grimo1re

Why only available in Britain? If they really wanted to give 'forgotten' authors a 'whole new readership' they'd make it available internationally.

I've looked again at the article and I can't see anything that says it will only be available in Britain. Though given that the article says that some of the books are already available in 'commercial' services, it may not be free - to British citizens or anyone else.

But the bad news is that the project is going to take two years (and given that Microsoft are doing it, that probably means five years with an offer to business users to downgrade) [dons flameproof suit]).

The paragraph also mentions Google Books:

Quote:

Whereas Microsoft is working with the British Library, Google is digitising the work of five of the world's other renowned libraries - Stanford, Harvard, and Michigan university libraries, the New York public library and the Bodleian library in Oxford.

Does anyone know what the heck is happening with this project? So far as I can see, all Google books gives me is excerpts of copyright books - even when the book itself is in the public domain (eg Conrad's Nostromo).

Studio717 · 10-02-2007, 12:29 PM

Don't know about the books, but the 18th century collection is locked down to university access. Nothing "public" about it, unfortunately. (Unless maybe you go to a university library and read them online.)

I hope - but don't expect - the books to be truly available to the public. I have no idea why they feel they have to lock down knowledge. It's very frustrating sometimes.

Studio717 · 10-02-2007, 12:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by andym

...

The paragraph also mentions Google Books:

Does anyone know what the heck is happening with this project? So far as I can see, all Google books gives me is excerpts of copyright books - even when the book itself is in the public domain (eg Conrad's Nostromo).

There are some public domain books available for download, but as you've discovered, not all by quite a margin. The frustrating part, for me, is that they will lock out one volume of a set! It's there - one just can't access it except in 'snippet' view.

My best guess as to why is that some (not all) of the public domain books that are locked out have been reprinted relatively recently. Almost all the locked out editions will have the public domain version (locked out) and a reprint edition. My luck has proven to hold when I discover that even the reprint edition - while it technically exists - is unavailable even on the OOP market, therefore making sure I can't access it.

Somewhere on the Google books site (might have been in a help file) it said that some of the locked books were just locked because they hadn't gotten to them to unlock them yet. I'm still hopeful that some of the books I can't access will become available, but my guess is that if there's a reprint of it, no luck.

(I'm sure there are exceptions, though, so let's hope they're the ones we really want to see.)

andym · 10-02-2007, 05:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Studio717

Don't know about the books, but the 18th century collection is locked down to university access. Nothing "public" about it, unfortunately. (Unless maybe you go to a university library and read them online.)

I hope - but don't expect - the books to be truly available to the public. I have no idea why they feel they have to lock down knowledge. It's very frustrating sometimes.

The British government's policy (rightly or wrongly, there are good arguments on both sides) is to encourage public bodies like the British Library to maximise income. Another example is our Ordnance Survey which licences mapping date (which in the US is, I think, in the public domain) on expensive and restrictive terms.

andym · 10-02-2007, 05:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Studio717

My best guess as to why is that some (not all) of the public domain books that are locked out have been reprinted relatively recently. Almost all the locked out editions will have the public domain version (locked out) and a reprint edition. My luck has proven to hold when I discover that even the reprint edition - while it technically exists - is unavailable even on the OOP market, therefore making sure I can't access it.

I must admit my cynical view is that Google Books is simply a way for google to make money getting advertisers to pay for listing and advertising. i'd like to think I was wrong but that's how it seems. Such a missed opportunity.

nekokami · 10-02-2007, 07:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by andym

I must admit my cynical view is that Google Books is simply a way for google to make money getting advertisers to pay for listing and advertising. i'd like to think I was wrong but that's how it seems. Such a missed opportunity.

Of course it is. Why would you think any differently?

Google is a commercial enterprise.

andym · 10-03-2007, 04:55 AM

I've just had a look around on Google and yes there are more full text versions than I thought originally, a really nice facsimile of Alice in Wonderland, but unfortunately the Nostromo seems simply to be a facsimile of a Plain Label Books rehash of the PG text which is a shame - it would be nice to have a facsimile of the original book as the PG text has errors.

Nekokami. I know that Google is a commercial enterprise - thanks for the reminder.

The point I was making was that there was a lot of great PR about the fact that Google was going to be digitising the collectlons of universities such as Oxford University's Bodleian library. A huge part of the humanity's cultural patrimony (much of which is out of print) that could be available to a wider audience. Something to get excited about. What we get is something that is mainly excerpts of books that are already easily accessible on the public market - Google's facility is for the most part no different from Amazon's 'Search Inside' system. I know Google is a commercial enterprise, but you'd think that if they were going to go to the trouble of scanning these books that they would find a more imaginitive way of using (and making money out of) that resource - for example, I came across one text via a Google search which I would like to read but it costs about $130. I'd happily pay something to be able to read it online (or put up with advertising or whatever).

I think that as things stand, Google has got the balance wrong, if Google Books is too beholden to publishers and isn't valuable to readers and researchers, then they simply won't use it and ultimately that reduces its value to advertisers. If I want to buy a book I go to Amazon, Google are going to have to offer me something more than Amazon offers me before I go to them instead.

10-01-2007, 01:59 PM	#1
nekokami fruminous edugeek Posts: 6,745 Karma: 551260 Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Northeast US Device: iPad, eBw 1150	British Library books go digital More than 100,000 old books previously unavailable to the public will go online thanks to a mass digitization program at the British Library. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/7018210.stm Interesting quote: "What we can read now is predetermined by a long tradition of what has been considered great literature.... By digitising the whole collection, we give access to the books without the filter of later judgments, whether based on taste or on the economics of printing and publishing."

10-03-2007, 04:55 AM	#15
andym Groupie Posts: 189 Karma: 793 Join Date: Oct 2006	I've just had a look around on Google and yes there are more full text versions than I thought originally, a really nice facsimile of Alice in Wonderland, but unfortunately the Nostromo seems simply to be a facsimile of a Plain Label Books rehash of the PG text which is a shame - it would be nice to have a facsimile of the original book as the PG text has errors. Nekokami. I know that Google is a commercial enterprise - thanks for the reminder. The point I was making was that there was a lot of great PR about the fact that Google was going to be digitising the collectlons of universities such as Oxford University's Bodleian library. A huge part of the humanity's cultural patrimony (much of which is out of print) that could be available to a wider audience. Something to get excited about. What we get is something that is mainly excerpts of books that are already easily accessible on the public market - Google's facility is for the most part no different from Amazon's 'Search Inside' system. I know Google is a commercial enterprise, but you'd think that if they were going to go to the trouble of scanning these books that they would find a more imaginitive way of using (and making money out of) that resource - for example, I came across one text via a Google search which I would like to read but it costs about $130. I'd happily pay something to be able to read it online (or put up with advertising or whatever). I think that as things stand, Google has got the balance wrong, if Google Books is too beholden to publishers and isn't valuable to readers and researchers, then they simply won't use it and ultimately that reduces its value to advertisers. If I want to buy a book I go to Amazon, Google are going to have to offer me something more than Amazon offers me before I go to them instead. Last edited by andym; 10-03-2007 at 06:40 AM.

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10-01-2007, 03:13 PM	#2
Steven Lyle Jordan Grand Sorcerer Posts: 8,478 Karma: 5171130 Join Date: Jan 2006 Device: none	I say, good show.

10-01-2007, 04:08 PM	#3
NatCh Gizmologist Posts: 11,615 Karma: 929550 Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Republic of Texas Embassy at Jackson, TN Device: Pocketbook Touch HD3	Here, here! Cheerio, and all that!

10-01-2007, 04:49 PM	#5
petermillard Evangelist Posts: 496 Karma: 2384998 Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: London, UK Device: iPad, iPhone, K3 & Amazon - between them they cover my needs.	<sigh> I'm sure the Brits (Pip! Pip!) on this board would be happy to help out - up to a point, of course... And good to see the Great British Understatement in full flow... "For example, authors who were only ever published outside the great centres of literary life have tended not to remain in print and have often been forgotten..." So, nothing whatsoever to do with the money-grubbing, snouts-in-the-trough, avaricious nature of publishers, salesmen (sorry, agents), lawyers (sorry, agents) and bankers (sorry, lawyers) then..? </sigh>

10-01-2007, 05:06 PM	#6
RWood Technogeezer Posts: 7,233 Karma: 1601464 Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Virginia, USA Device: Sony PRS-500	Well, at least we know what Harry's next 100,000 ebook uploads will be.

10-02-2007, 07:11 AM	#8
grimo1re Geekette Posts: 435 Karma: 3335 Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: NSW, Australia Device: Sony Reader PRS500, PocketBook 360	Why only available in Britain? If they really wanted to give 'forgotten' authors a 'whole new readership' they'd make it available internationally.

10-02-2007, 12:29 PM	#10
Studio717 Addict Posts: 208 Karma: 575 Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: California Device: Various Kindles, iPhone, iPad, Galaxy 10.1	Don't know about the books, but the 18th century collection is locked down to university access. Nothing "public" about it, unfortunately. (Unless maybe you go to a university library and read them online.) I hope - but don't expect - the books to be truly available to the public. I have no idea why they feel they have to lock down knowledge. It's very frustrating sometimes.