What's with the Paranoia?

[John F]

Originally Posted by JSWolf

...

And don't forget library eBooks from Overdrive. If @fabricalado is in the US, he won't be able to borrow Kindle eBooks from Overdrive.

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Yes they can, it just takes a little more work.

[fabricalado]

All valid points that you're all offering, and yet they're more reasons not to register a device, imo! If it's possible to sideload books on a Kindle, there's less need to register mine.

Maybe the question is, or is turning into, why do some people trust Amazon/Rakuten/etc with their data and others don't? Here I think it's totally possible to hold contradictory positions: you can buy a Kindle, Kobo etc, and still not trust these companies 100%.

(I'm in Canada, but we have Overdrive here! And yes, that would be a reason for me to register, since I think it's not possible to use it otherwise.)

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by fabricalado

All valid points that you're all offering, and yet they're more reasons not to register a device, imo! If it's possible to sideload books on a Kindle, there's less need to register mine.

Maybe the question is, or is turning into, why do some people trust Amazon/Rakuten/etc with their data and others don't? Here I think it's totally possible to hold contradictory positions: you can buy a Kindle, Kobo etc, and still not trust these companies 100%.

(I'm in Canada, but we have Overdrive here! And yes, that would be a reason for me to register, since I think it's not possible to use it otherwise.)

If you buy eBooks from any eBookstore, you will have to give your information to them. Also, if you buy a Kindle from Amazon, you already have an account.

What is there to distrust about Amazon, Kobo, and the others?

Also, you have to give your information to Overdrive if you want to use it and it's no worse then giving your info to Amazon or Kobo.

[DNSB]

Originally Posted by fabricalado

(I'm in Canada, but we have Overdrive here! And yes, that would be a reason for me to register, since I think it's not possible to use it otherwise.)

In Canada, I am not aware of any public libraries that allow downloading Kindle format ebooks. Kobo users have the option of borrowing and downloading to their registered device from the device. Either family has the option to use ADE or equivalent to download the epub and then sideload (Kobo) or (Kindle) remove DRM, convert & sideload. Sideloading does require a library account which will require them knowing your information and an Adobe account for DRM to obtain the epub.

Personally, I do not support removing DRM from library books since, IMNSHO, I don't own the books and will not be making backups and removing DRM also removes the return date.

[John F]

Originally Posted by JSWolf

If you buy eBooks from any eBookstore, you will have to give your information to them. ...

...

I don't believe the above is true. You could use gift cards or a visa debit card and a separate email address.

[fabricalado]

Originally Posted by JSWolf

If you buy eBooks from any eBookstore, you will have to give your information to them. Also, if you buy a Kindle from Amazon, you already have an account.

That's correct. Still, I believe you can buy an used Kindle, for example, which wouldn't require you to register it.

Originally Posted by JSWolf

What is there to distrust about Amazon, Kobo, and the others?

Depends on what you're referring to. Amazon as a business is problematic in lots of ways because it has a history of spying on workers trying to unionize and then working to dismantle unionization efforts; it also has used their knowledge of what third-party sellers are doing in their platform to copy them and, in some cases, to ruin small businesses. Additionally, Amazon has cooperated with law enforcement to provide access to their (Amazon's) facial recognition tools.

None of those are directly related to the Kindle. However, they can all be valid reasons for some people not to trust Amazon with their data (which could make a case for why not to register a Kindle or buy from Amazon).

For something directly related to the Kindle, there's this:
"According to a report from security firm Realmode Labs, a chain of vulnerabilities present until recently in Kindle ebooks had created a situation whereby an attacker could compromise a victim’s device and account.
[...] By this method of attack, says Bar-On, an attacker could have gained access to personal details, made purchases using the owner’s credit card and sold ebooks on the Kindle marketplace before siphoning funds into their own account."


As for Kobo, this comes from Firefox's Privacy not Included list of Christmas gifts, which put the Kobo on #8 in terms of creepiness (their term, not mine):
"While it is nice to have an e-reader option that is not tied to Amazon and all the data collection Amazon does, it doesn't mean you're off the hook when it comes to data collection with Kobo's e-readers. They may share your personal Information with service providers, business partners or affiliates, retail partners, or by selling it to third parties for marketing purposes. And, we're not sure you can even delete the data they collect on you. You can request that data be corrected. There was no mention of deletion in the privacy policy."

Keyword here is that Kobo may do creepy stuff. They may not.
Again, as with most everyday consumer decisions, we choose 50% informed and 50% on a whim.

Originally Posted by JSWolf

Also, you have to give your information to Overdrive if you want to use it and it's no worse then giving your info to Amazon or Kobo.

This may be true, but what, and how much do you know about OverDrive?
I don't know them well to say they haven't been involved in nefarious practices in the past.

If something came out, I'd probably regret my decision not to know, but then again, we take these leaps of faith everyday.

[fabricalado]

Originally Posted by DNSB

In Canada, I am not aware of any public libraries that allow downloading Kindle format ebooks. Kobo users have the option of borrowing and downloading to their registered device from the device. Either family has the option to use ADE or equivalent to download the epub and then sideload (Kobo) or (Kindle) remove DRM, convert & sideload. Sideloading does require a library account which will require them knowing your information and an Adobe account for DRM to obtain the epub.

Personally, I do not support removing DRM from library books since, IMNSHO, I don't own the books and will not be making backups and removing DRM also removes the return date.

I have a Kobo too, which is where I use Overdrive.

And yeah, I agree that de-DRMing library books isn't ethical.

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by fabricalado

As for Kobo, this comes from Firefox's Privacy not Included list of Christmas gifts, which put the Kobo on #8 in terms of creepiness (their term, not mine):
"While it is nice to have an e-reader option that is not tied to Amazon and all the data collection Amazon does, it doesn't mean you're off the hook when it comes to data collection with Kobo's e-readers. They may share your personal Information with service providers, business partners or affiliates, retail partners, or by selling it to third parties for marketing purposes. And, we're not sure you can even delete the data they collect on you. You can request that data be corrected. There was no mention of deletion in the privacy policy."

Keyword here is that Kobo may do creepy stuff. They may not.
Again, as with most everyday consumer decisions, we choose 50% informed and 50% on a whim.

I've had an account with Kobo for 7-8 years or so. I have not once been contacted for marketing purpose by any third part company because of Kobo. That should be proof enough that it's OK to register a Kobo.

This may be true, but what, and how much do you know about OverDrive?
I don't know them well to say they haven't been involved in nefarious practices in the past.

You have to ignore what Overdrive did in the past. Overdrive was sold recently and now belongs to KKR as of June 2020. So anything Overdrive did wrong in the past is in the past with previous owners.

I've had an account with Overdrive for at least as long as my Kobo account and again, nothing wrong.

I've had my Amazon account before eInk Readers existed and again nothing wrong.

So if I can have an account for many years and not have a problem, why do you think you will have a problem?

[fabricalado]

Sure, you can choose to ignore everything all the companies listed here did, but the risk will still exist - and one could say that's reason enough not to take risks.

Google dropped their "don't be evil" motto for a reason: companies operate mainly on a profit incentive. And that is generally acceptable, as long as people make informed decisions about it. In some cases, though, there's not enough data available in a comprehensible manner for people to choose. Do you read every ToS and make sure you understand what you're agreeing to? I don't.

We're all free to choose in which lie we believe, but to say the only reason people refuse to register is paranoia when there seems to be more than a few other valid reasons sounds like an uncharitable reading of people's motivations. To me, at least.

[b0rsuk]

I recommend that you read the 2020 essay by Cory Doctorow simply titled "IP". As in "Intellectual Property".

It's about law, technology, freedom, and more.
https://locusmag.com/2020/09/cory-doctorow-ip/

“IP is any law that I can invoke that allows me to control the conduct of my competitors, critics, and customers.”

"Some 40 years later, the world is a very different place. Between software copyrights, anti-circum*vention rules, software patents, enforceable terms of service, trade secrecy, non-compete agreements, and the pending (at the time of this writing) Oracle/Google dispute over API copyrights, any attempt to interoperate with an existing product service with*out permission from its corporate master is a legal suicide mission, an invitation to almost unlimited civil – and even criminal! – litigation. That is to say: if you dare to modify, improve, or replace an existing, dominant software-based product or service, you risk bankruptcy and a long prison sentence."

"You may have heard Netscape founder Marc Andrees*sen’s famous phrase: “Software is eating the world.” It’s not quite true. Software has eaten the world.

Past tense.

If there was any doubt, the pandemic erased it. Locked down, viewing the world through our screens, there is no longer any distinction between human rights and digital rights. There is no software freedom. There’s only freedom.

Software is expanding relentlessly into every device and system, from ventilators to tractors, from toothbrushes to sex-toys, from refrigerator filters to money itself. Wherever we find software, we find “IP” – that is, software deployed to control the conduct of competitors, critics, and customers, in such a way that overlapping systems of laws can be invoked to punish anyone who bypasses that software."

He makes many other good points. Now shower me in good karma.

[ownedbycats]

Originally Posted by b0rsuk

Software is expanding relentlessly into every device and system, from ventilators to tractors, from toothbrushes to sex-toys, from refrigerator filters to money itself.

That reminds me of a recent published security flaw with an internet-of-things-enabled chastity belt.

Why someone would want that connected to the internet I fail to understand.

[ownedbycats]

Originally Posted by DNSB

Personally, I do not support removing DRM from library books since, IMNSHO, I don't own the books and will not be making backups and removing DRM also removes the return date.

For what it matters, Apprentice Alf's DeDRM won't work on library books. The FAQ makes it sound like this is a deliberate design choice.

[DNSB]

Originally Posted by ownedbycats

For what it matters, Apprentice Alf's DeDRM won't work on library books. The FAQ makes it sound like this is a deliberate design choice.

Sadly, that is not true. Kindle library loans are supposedly blocked from having DRM removed (as a Canadian, I don't have access to Kindle loans to test this) but ePub loans using Adobe's DRM are not protected.

Hence, my personal decision that removing DRM from library books does not fit with removing DRM so I can make accessible backups of books that I own. I've been told that differentiating between a loan and a purchase is hairsplitting but that's my choice.

[ownedbycats]

Ah, I was just going by what I saw in the FAQ. Never actually tested it myself. I think there is the occasional bug report about someone trying to dedrm a library book and it being closed with "we don't support this."

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by DNSB

Sadly, that is not true. Kindle library loans are supposedly blocked from having DRM removed (as a Canadian, I don't have access to Kindle loans to test this) but ePub loans using Adobe's DRM are not protected.

Hence, my personal decision that removing DRM from library books does not fit with removing DRM so I can make accessible backups of books that I own. I've been told that differentiating between a loan and a purchase is hairsplitting but that's my choice.

Kindle library loans can also have the DRM removed.