Books in multiple series - Page 2

HarryT · 11-13-2015, 08:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by eschwartz

"Nontrivial".

The issue has come up before.

Replacing a "many to 1" relationship between series and books with a "many to many" relationship is not, in itself, a difficult problem; it can be done by adding a "book/series" link table into the database. But it would involve rewriting all the queries involving books and series, and every additional "join" in a query slows it down, so if (as I believe would be the case) the number of books that are in multiple series is small, the benefit of doing this is probably questionable.

eschwartz · 11-13-2015, 10:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HarryT

Replacing a "many to 1" relationship between series and books with a "many to many" relationship is not, in itself, a difficult problem; it can be done by adding a "book/series" link table into the database. But it would involve rewriting all the queries involving books and series, and every additional "join" in a query slows it down, so if (as I believe would be the case) the number of books that are in multiple series is small, the benefit of doing this is probably questionable.

Something like that, yes.

The underlying complexity of all the various queries calibre uses is also one of the reasons why rewriting the library handling to allow you to keep your books in a mess all over the filesystem à la iTunes has been repeatedly rejected as another absolute nonstarter. But of course that also has "Design Incompatibility" going for it too.

chaley · 11-13-2015, 11:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HarryT

Replacing a "many to 1" relationship between series and books with a "many to many" relationship is not, in itself, a difficult problem; it can be done by adding a "book/series" link table into the database. But it would involve rewriting all the queries involving books and series, and every additional "join" in a query slows it down, so if (as I believe would be the case) the number of books that are in multiple series is small, the benefit of doing this is probably questionable.

And that is the easy part.

Harder is changing every place where the item is used from "1 thing" to "many things". This affects every report, field editor, command line program that takes it as a parameter or writes it, web page where it appears, ajax point that can deliver it, ajax client, template that uses the field, and so on. Add on the questions related to how the items are ordered and sorted and things get even worse.

theducks · 11-13-2015, 12:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phssthpok

In most cases there isn't a main series in that sense; there are usually two well-defined series which occasionally overlap, where it wouldn't make sense to make one series a subseries of the other.

I use a second series type columns for those cases:
J. P. Beaumont[16]
Joanna Brady[10]

I use Hierarchical notation for sub series
Pern.Dragondrums[3]

JSWolf · 11-13-2015, 12:23 PM

Is it possible to separate the series int he series column with a comma and will Calibre create two collections on devices for which it can manage collections?

eschwartz · 11-13-2015, 12:26 PM

Ummm.... no?
Why would it?

series is NOT a tag-like column.

Haven't you read the first part of this thread?

JSWolf · 11-13-2015, 01:21 PM

One solution is to put the book into the series you plan on reading it with. So if a book belongs to two series, put it in with the series you will be reading this book.

If you don't have a device that Calibre can manage collections, use the Tags column and put in the series order number for the second series. Or if you do have a device that Calibre can manage collections for such as a Kobo or Sony, put in the Series column the series you plan to read the book and in the Tags column, put in the second series. You won't be able to put in the order number, but at least you won't need to add another column that's little used.

theducks · 11-13-2015, 02:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JSWolf

One solution is to put the book into the series you plan on reading it with. So if a book belongs to two series, put it in with the series you will be reading this book.

If you don't have a device that Calibre can manage collections, use the Tags column and put in the series order number for the second series. Or if you do have a device that Calibre can manage collections for such as a Kobo or Sony, put in the Series column the series you plan to read the book and in the Tags column, put in the second series. You won't be able to put in the order number, but at least you won't need to add another column that's little used.

Jon
Series_Index is parsed when stored in the Books Table in the DB
The Series Name is in the Series Table
the book and Series Name are linked via books_series_lnk table

Things get lots more complicated if you try and cram 2 (or more) series with indexes
I have a book (collection) that has 4 storie, by 4 Authors, which belong to 4 different series

Where do you STOP

Phssthpok · 11-16-2015, 06:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by eschwartz

Huh?

They are usually both a subseries of something.

So for Asimov, you'd need a "Galactic Empire" series as a way to subsume the Foundation series and Robots series, and I have no idea how you'd order them in any meaningful sequence; Agatha Christie has five books featuring Superintendent Battle, but number 3 (Cards on the Table) is also Poirot #15 -- would I need a "Male Detectives" series to include Poirot and Battle but exclude Miss Marple and Tommy & Tuppence? -- P.G. Wodehouse has a Psmith series and a Blandings Castle series and a Jeeves series and an Uncle Fred series which all overlap to some extent (Psmith #2 is also Blandings #4, Uncle Fred #1 is also Blandings #6...), so you'd need an overarching series called "Books by P.G.Wodehouse"... which kind of misses the point really...

Quote:

Originally Posted by eschwartz

"Nontrivial".

The issue has come up before.

Indeed. Having had to re-engineer a fairly large live DB in exactly this way once in the past, I wouldn't expect it to happen any time soon...

eschwartz · 11-16-2015, 10:02 AM

Well, actually I list all the Asimov books as "Foundation", ordered from the early days of "I, Robot".
Essentially, the list that Wikipedia calls the "Greater Foundation".

Which includes five distinct, entirely chronological subseries.

"Galactic Empire" is actually the canonical way of describing subseries #2, The Stars, Like Dust, The Currents of Space, and Pebble in the Sky.

I don't know what you would do with Wodehouse, and I haven't gotten to organizing Christie yet.

changeling · 04-02-2017, 02:22 AM

Just found this old thread as I was looking for something similar. For me, the best option would be a multivalued series field (and, yes I know that would imply a lot of work, for a feature not so many people need, and that's probably why it will never be done)

Note that there are many cases where two series overlap without one being a subseries of other. For example, "Tarzan in the center of the Earth" by Edgar Rice Burroughs is both the 13th Tarzan book and the 4th Pellucidar book, but the series are otherwise independent.

Meanwhile, as a workaround, what I do is to put the book only in one serie (you choose the criteria: where you read it first, which series began to be published first, the biggest series...) and then I use tags and subtags for fine tuning, which makes searching easy.

When I have many different series in what could be seen a common "universe", I use a different approach. I make each their own series, and I use a common tag for the universe. That works very well for Dragonlance, Dune, etc.

MastiffMike · 04-07-2017, 04:20 AM

FWIW, what I do is just make a copy of the calibre entry (i.e. the same book is listed twice) but each with a different series. Sure, it means I'm wasting a little storage space, but I'd rather that than the alternatives.

It also helps that I only do this when SOME books from one series fall within another series. However, if an entire series can be considered part of a larger series, than I just go that route.

theducks · 04-07-2017, 12:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by changeling

Just found this old thread as I was looking for something similar. For me, the best option would be a multivalued series field (and, yes I know that would imply a lot of work, for a feature not so many people need, and that's probably why it will never be done)

Note that there are many cases where two series overlap without one being a subseries of other. For example, "Tarzan in the center of the Earth" by Edgar Rice Burroughs is both the 13th Tarzan book and the 4th Pellucidar book, but the series are otherwise independent.

Meanwhile, as a workaround, what I do is to put the book only in one serie (you choose the criteria: where you read it first, which series began to be published first, the biggest series...) and then I use tags and subtags for fine tuning, which makes searching easy.

When I have many different series in what could be seen a common "universe", I use a different approach. I make each their own series, and I use a common tag for the universe. That works very well for Dragonlance, Dune, etc.

Hierarchical series mode works well for Universes (and spin-offs)
Universe.branch1
Universe.branch2
...
Sometimes the Universe level has no books, othertimes there might be Notes or guides

JSWolf · 04-07-2017, 01:36 PM

One thing you can do is just put the book in the series you plan to read it.

Larla · 07-01-2018, 01:57 PM

Sorry to resurrect this old thread but I had just started reading the Pellucidar series by Edgar Rice Burroughs and quickly ran into this problem for the book: Tarzan at the Earth's Core (as mentioned in #26 above).

My proposed solution is to replicate the book and change the titles by adding (Tarzan) and (Pellucidar) respectively at the end of each title. They can each then be given their correct series information.

11-16-2015, 10:02 AM	#25
eschwartz Ex-Helpdesk Junkie Posts: 19,421 Karma: 85400180 Join Date: Nov 2012 Location: The Beaten Path, USA, Roundworld, This Side of Infinity Device: Kindle Touch fw5.3.7 (Wifi only)	Well, actually I list all the Asimov books as "Foundation", ordered from the early days of "I, Robot". Essentially, the list that Wikipedia calls the "Greater Foundation". Which includes five distinct, entirely chronological subseries. "Galactic Empire" is actually the canonical way of describing subseries #2, The Stars, Like Dust, The Currents of Space, and Pebble in the Sky. I don't know what you would do with Wodehouse, and I haven't gotten to organizing Christie yet. Last edited by eschwartz; 11-16-2015 at 10:07 AM.

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11-13-2015, 12:23 PM	#20
JSWolf Resident Curmudgeon Posts: 79,407 Karma: 145491800 Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Roslindale, Massachusetts Device: Kobo Libra 2, Kobo Aura H2O, PRS-650, PRS-T1, nook STR, PW3	Is it possible to separate the series int he series column with a comma and will Calibre create two collections on devices for which it can manage collections?

11-13-2015, 12:26 PM	#21
eschwartz Ex-Helpdesk Junkie Posts: 19,421 Karma: 85400180 Join Date: Nov 2012 Location: The Beaten Path, USA, Roundworld, This Side of Infinity Device: Kindle Touch fw5.3.7 (Wifi only)	Ummm.... no? Why would it? series is NOT a tag-like column. Haven't you read the first part of this thread?

11-13-2015, 01:21 PM	#22
JSWolf Resident Curmudgeon Posts: 79,407 Karma: 145491800 Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Roslindale, Massachusetts Device: Kobo Libra 2, Kobo Aura H2O, PRS-650, PRS-T1, nook STR, PW3	One solution is to put the book into the series you plan on reading it with. So if a book belongs to two series, put it in with the series you will be reading this book. If you don't have a device that Calibre can manage collections, use the Tags column and put in the series order number for the second series. Or if you do have a device that Calibre can manage collections for such as a Kobo or Sony, put in the Series column the series you plan to read the book and in the Tags column, put in the second series. You won't be able to put in the order number, but at least you won't need to add another column that's little used.

04-02-2017, 02:22 AM	#26
changeling Junior Member Posts: 6 Karma: 10 Join Date: Aug 2013 Device: Kindle Paperwhite, iPad	Just found this old thread as I was looking for something similar. For me, the best option would be a multivalued series field (and, yes I know that would imply a lot of work, for a feature not so many people need, and that's probably why it will never be done) Note that there are many cases where two series overlap without one being a subseries of other. For example, "Tarzan in the center of the Earth" by Edgar Rice Burroughs is both the 13th Tarzan book and the 4th Pellucidar book, but the series are otherwise independent. Meanwhile, as a workaround, what I do is to put the book only in one serie (you choose the criteria: where you read it first, which series began to be published first, the biggest series...) and then I use tags and subtags for fine tuning, which makes searching easy. When I have many different series in what could be seen a common "universe", I use a different approach. I make each their own series, and I use a common tag for the universe. That works very well for Dragonlance, Dune, etc.

04-07-2017, 04:20 AM	#27
MastiffMike Junior Member Posts: 1 Karma: 10 Join Date: Apr 2017 Device: Smartphone	FWIW, what I do is just make a copy of the calibre entry (i.e. the same book is listed twice) but each with a different series. Sure, it means I'm wasting a little storage space, but I'd rather that than the alternatives. It also helps that I only do this when SOME books from one series fall within another series. However, if an entire series can be considered part of a larger series, than I just go that route.

04-07-2017, 01:36 PM	#29
JSWolf Resident Curmudgeon Posts: 79,407 Karma: 145491800 Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Roslindale, Massachusetts Device: Kobo Libra 2, Kobo Aura H2O, PRS-650, PRS-T1, nook STR, PW3	One thing you can do is just put the book in the series you plan to read it.

07-01-2018, 01:57 PM	#30
Larla Addict Posts: 281 Karma: 5262189 Join Date: Dec 2011 Location: Katy, TX Device: Samsung Tab S5E 12" Tablet	Sorry to resurrect this old thread but I had just started reading the Pellucidar series by Edgar Rice Burroughs and quickly ran into this problem for the book: Tarzan at the Earth's Core (as mentioned in #26 above). My proposed solution is to replicate the book and change the titles by adding (Tarzan) and (Pellucidar) respectively at the end of each title. They can each then be given their correct series information.

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