Onyx Boox as monitor

[SnowRipple]

" Probably, this is the maximum for the 13.3 Carta e-ink matrix."

I think that you can squeeze out much more from Carta, Dasung's new Paperlike hd seems blazing fast!:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OO0Qzuw18q8&t=25s

(don't want to spam Onyx forum with Dasung)

So there is a room for improvement on the software side most probably.

[-Lesnikus-]

Originally Posted by SnowRipple

I think that you can squeeze out much more from Carta, Dasung's new Paperlike hd seems blazing fast!:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OO0Qzuw18q8&t=25s

When the author of the video did a lengthy scrolling of the page, I managed to calculate the frame rate. The result is the same: 6 fps. This is no different from Dasung Paperlike Pro and Onyx Boox Max 2 Professional. The Paperlike HD version uses the same ES133TT3 matrix as Onyx Max 2 Professional? If so, this again confirms my theory that there is a rigid restriction of the e-ink matrix itself to 6 fps instead of 8.
As for the delay, yes, Dasung is much less delay than Onyx. This applies to the Paperlike Pro version, which is sold all over the world. I did not even count milliseconds. There are almost no delays. Onyx loses in this regard. If Onyx does not reduce the delay time for the release and you choose an e-ink monitor for the PC between Dasung and Onyx, I advise Dasung. The frame rate for both devices is the same, but the delay is shorter for Dasung.

[mdp]

Originally Posted by -Lesnikus-

There are almost no delays. Onyx loses in this regard. If Onyx does not reduce the delay time for the release and you choose an e-ink monitor for the PC between Dasung and Onyx, I advise Dasung.

It must be mentioned that the Dasung does one thing only. The Onyx is a full fledged tablet that also can act as a monitor (in case of need, it also). At a comparable (or lower?) cost.

This said, why there should be a delay when the input is HDMI, I do not understand. They are probably using some software that delays the rendering - we will see.

[SnowRipple]

@mdp, @-Lesnikus- It's very informative what you guys write, have some karma

In my case, it's they delay that troubles me not the frames per second. I would like to use Max for programming etc. and the delay seems quite big. Dasung Hd on the other hand is almost like lcd screen.


I seriously hope that this is a software issue, if I remember correctly Onyx is quite open about their software ( there was SDK always) so maybe some third party will provide a fix in the future..

It will be interesting to see Note in January, I wonder will it have the same problems like Max 2..

A wild guess about the software cause of delay even with hdmi would be their dithering solution.I assume a compromise had to be made between delay, frames and image quality (A2, A16) and what we're seeing is the best combination to satisfy all needs according to Onyx. It would be nice if Onyx would let users decide on trade-off, e.g. If i care more about responsiveness and I can work with A2 only I would like to be able to decide.

[Booxtor]

Originally Posted by SnowRipple

@mdp, @-Lesnikus- It's very informative what you guys write, have some karma

In my case, it's they delay that troubles me not the frames per second. I would like to use Max for programming etc. and the delay seems quite big. Dasung Hd on the other hand is almost like lcd screen.


I seriously hope that this is a software issue, if I remember correctly Onyx is quite open about their software ( there was SDK always) so maybe some third party will provide a fix in the future..

It will be interesting to see Note in January, I wonder will it have the same problems like Max 2..

A wild guess about the software cause of delay even with hdmi would be their dithering solution.I assume a compromise had to be made between delay, frames and image quality (A2, A16) and what we're seeing is the best combination to satisfy all needs according to Onyx. It would be nice if Onyx would let users decide on trade-off, e.g. If i care more about responsiveness and I can work with A2 only I would like to be able to decide.

I don't really understand what kind of delay you mean? Text input works almost without delay. I could compare how Dasung and Max2 work (each in own Floyd mode). The result is quite the same. Same picture quality and same speed.
In my other short video I showed how text input on Max works. Did you watch it?

[SnowRipple]

Yeah I watched it but as I wrote in other post: I would like to a text of Max 2 with Screen Mirroring (not extension) where both lcd and e-ink screens are visible at all times. Ideally it would be nice to have the comparison with Max Carta, because based on all videos (still no good review out there) I saw the speed/delay seems very similar so we're wondering where all hdmi power went to.

The only good video of both Max 2 and lcd screen showed at the same time is here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TtYHWEh7ERk&t=43s

And the delay is awful.. Not usable at all.

So please please please @Booxtor prove us wrong!

[mdp]

Originally Posted by Booxtor

Text input works almost without delay.

Hi Booxtor, how comfortable did you feel using the mouse (when interacting to the user interface - when you want to position the mouse cursor on some icon)?
Is the experience more like "almost no difference with normality" or more like "you get used to it"?

See, using HDMI may have given the expectation that the screen updates immediately, but some videos gave a different idea. The only real issue, in case, is whether you are comforable in using the desktop interfaces (icons, toolbars, menus) well - basically, if the mouse is responsive.

Try to use a mouse with a one second delay between the movement of the wrist and the update of the position of the cursor on the screen, you'll get seasick ; )

This said, the engineers surely had a great idea to get the best achievable compromise and mix tablet and monitor. It's a novelty (to me). It has to be seen directly. Using a software on top creates extra flexibility - more features could be implemented at a later stage.

[joblack]

Originally Posted by Booxtor

I don't really understand what kind of delay you mean? Text input works almost without delay. I could compare how Dasung and Max2 work (each in own Floyd mode). The result is quite the same. Same picture quality and same speed.
In my other short video I showed how text input on Max works. Did you watch it?

He probably meant the input lag. It's the time between the graphic signal leaving the HDMI cable and at the end displaying on the screen.

If you have a high input lag (say you move the mouse to the right and the mouse cursor lags seconds behind) it is hard to work with it.

You could show an mirroring of the notebook screen to the Max 2. Then it is possible to see the difference.

[mdp]

Finally the new device being out, Max2, new possibilities arise and old ones improve.

For reference my experience of the HDMI connection as written in the parallel thread about the device in general:

I tried the monitor, HDMI connected, since the kind folks at Onyx are so kind to distribute the HDMI -> HDMI-mini cable with the box.

Now the question was: how well do you find your way using the mouse. And the answer to me is, well not as well as with traditional systems, but it is usable and you get used to it soon. The discriminator is if you forget the issue during the use, and I yes did forget the non-usual experience with the mouse and started using it naturally. Like managing the voice delays in a Voice over IP call with non perfect connection, better than many VoIP calls with imperfect connection.

Some lag is there, I did not compute it: but like a call it is not a problem if both parties agree to respect turns.
So, Cuphead looks very nice but you will not beat the boss ; )
Many other contexts are certainly adequate.

The "monitor" experience
-- either requires an extra setting that updates a screen cell only if the changes are above some threshold, or
-- requires insuring that changes in some area of the screen do not involve dithering changes in areas that did remain unchanged in the original rendering. In other words, it seems that if on the screen an area is changed, other graphics in the EPD is changed, in areas which are instead static, because the computation of their dithering changed.
The problem with this, is that the battery would be drained uselessly.

[...]

Onyx's monitor solution (software + hardware) works very, very well.
You plug the cable, you see a "Toshiba" monitor in your park - I tried on several OS, no problem. There, you can extend, mirror etc. from the source desktop OS.

Yes, the experience on HDMI + monitor software surely, after experience, beats VNC /on the weak MaxCarta/. But to use remote desktop solutions on the Max2 - VNC, RDP, NX, TeamViewer - will be very interesting and there is ample chance to obtain productive environments.
So, remote desktop solutions will work in more cases (network distance etc.) and at the moment could reveal more flexible.

[...]

Hello, I am writing this message from the Max2 used as a monitor through HDMI (I needed light to test). Again confirm it works well, actually.
Now, latency is a potential for problems, so I tried Braid. Looks beautiful, and works well, and it is usable (you can actually play it with some degree of control)! Not sure I would finish the game though. The test is to see the accuracy of the reactions. So, taking Cuphead as a "impossible", Braid looks doable. To those who do not know what the two things are: I do this to verify how well you control an interaction.

The mouse is, in real experience, quite usable. Other tricks I earlier suggested, like the "mouse cursor trail", may enhance the experience (cannot try, I am on Linux) - but they are not required. You just get used to it. The annoyance is (for those who never worked with laggy monitors, typical of remote contexts), precision when pointing to small items, such as the corner of the text edit area in this real time case - but even in these cases, really, it's fully doable.

I can identify three lacks in the current implementation, that as shipped with the device:
- the Monitor software only uses A2 mode (of course A2 with dithering), but Normal mode would be really, really welcome, and there is no use to do without it. It is like in all other situations: A2 is good in case of large moving parts on the screen, normal is good to properly eye details on the screen. The ability to switch to Normal mode should be added.
- The dithering is dynamic: a static screen continuously changes its dots, because a grey bar is rendered with always differently placed dots. It's like a bee swarm. This is why it consumes battery! It does, but there is no need to do it! This must be just an intermediate implementation. If a bar in frame 0 is rendered as "1 0 0 1 1 0 1 0 0 1 0 1 1 0...", that dithering should remain identical in frame 1, frame 2, frame 3 etc. until that bar is modified on the screen (translated, scaled etc.). "Static screen" should imply "identical rendering".
This also gives the effect of a pulsating screen.
- it would be useful, although not strictly necessary, to have a software contrast enhancer in the Monitor application itsefl. Of course, similar settings are also available in the desktop OS, so it's not really needed.

[mdp]

And now for remote desktop technologies. Especially since currently the Onyx' "Monitor" application does not support "Normal EPD" mode, but only A2.

I tried to see how well the Max2 fares with Iordanov's bVNC:
very well, and better than with the MaxCarta. It is usable, though not of course the full productivity of a standard environment. Since it seems that currently, anyway, it is not possible to reduce the lag or have high framerates, the remote desktop solutions are not miles far from "software managed HDMI". I have not taken numbers and stats. Moreover, you have the advantage of the touchscreen - still to be implemented in the official solution (I would encourage it).

I tested x11vnc (the server) + bVNC through Wi-Fi (since I cannot yet get a USB networking #!xx^!^), and I obtained good quality and stability at ~10Mbps.

I attach a small video with the rates. The inspiration though suggested to test with Mrzyk and Moriceau's work for "Look" from Sebastien Tellier (an `iftop` window is above it to read the stats), so if you are easily offended don't watch it.

The attached is a zipped .mp4 video.

[fabris]

Hi mdp,

thank you for the detailed review about the monitor mode. I am hesitating to buy the Dasung Paperlike Pro or the Onyx Boox Max 2 Pro for web browsing (reading long articles) and through the HDMI connection for coding and word processing from my PC.

However based on your review the displaying algorithm is in a very early development stage comparing to the Paperlike Pro and the battery drains very quickly.

May I ask you to create a video about the screen of the Boox Max 2 when you connect it to your PC through the HDMI connector and use it for a short word processing and web browsing? How quick is the battery draining during the HDMI connection?

Thanks.

[mobama]

Isn't there a way to charge the Max2 Pro when it's connected as monitor?

For example, I have an MHL to HDMI adaptor like this https://tse2.mm.bing.net/th?id=OIP.D...gHaFj&pid=15.1 (notice the Mains Power thing) Could this be used to connect Max2 Pro so that it serves as a monitor and stays powered at the same time?

[mdp]

Originally Posted by fabris

thank you for the detailed review about the monitor mode.

Actually just a few lines about some things we became most concerned about, iterated as I experimented in these hours of probing.

Originally Posted by fabris

I am hesitating to buy the Dasung Paperlike Pro or the Onyx Boox Max 2 Pro for web browsing (reading long articles) and through the HDMI connection for coding and word processing from my PC.

(? From the last paragraph, it seems you really meant "web browsing on the desktop OS". Why?!?)
As you know that the Max2 is a full tablet, so web browsing and office automation can already be done on the Max2 without the need to connect it elsewhere. This side, clearly speaking, make me always see that "competition" as ephemeral (like "car" vs. "tent").

Originally Posted by fabris

However based on your review the displaying algorithm is in a very early development stage comparing to the Paperlike Pro and the battery drains very quickly.

No, let's avoid ambiguities: the dithering as a detail is a very good one - I suppose you checked my shots of Winston and Ng. Small and big details of the implementation of the "Monitor" software application distributed with the tablet should be revised and improved (look, do you think we would have been content to receive a perfect thing in 2020?). The development is *not* in "very early development stage": I am a demander, and the implementation is good already; my policy is that if you can improve it you should improve it, but you can already use it now.

But most importantly, you are missing a detail that while the Max2 is flexible and you can do:
-- native operation
-- desktop remote access
on the Dasung you cannot.
Meaning: those faults noted in the "Monitor" software are overridden with the desktop remote access. Which again is imperfect, but optimizable - you have compromises in all cases and surely you will have compromises with a Dasung.

Originally Posted by fabris

May I ask you to create a video

I want to create a few videos today. I only managed to get network connectivity in the evening so I could not test the desktop remote methods yet.

Originally Posted by fabris

How quick is the battery draining during the HDMI connection

False problem, because at those rates you simply keep it in USB-charge anyway.
Note that on the other side, it seemed to me that the VNC session through Wi-Fi did not consume much battery,

[mdp]

Originally Posted by mobama

Isn't there a way to charge the Max2 Pro when it's connected as monitor?

You are supposed to use the USB connection alongside the HDMI connection when the latter is in use, with the current implementation... (Again: you do know it is a full tablet, right? As it normally is, it is charged through the USB port.)

And in the future implementations some USB cable could still be there, because it is a good thing to have touchscreen. (I do not think that the HDMI cable can be easily used to transmit that data, right? Although some possibility should be there.)

EDIT: the scheme you provided does not fit with the model. It is like this instead:

COMPUTER ---- (HDMI) ----> TABLET
         ---- (USB) ----->

[mobama]

Originally Posted by mdp

You are supposed to use the USB connection alongside the HDMI connection when the latter is in use, with the current implementation... (Again: you do know it is a full tablet, right? As it normally is, it is charged through the USB port.)

Yes, I know it's a full tablet, but: When you connect it to a computer to use it as a monitor, can you keep doing the tablet things on it or does it transmorph itself into a plain monitor? Are there two modes (monitor vs e.g. connected storage device) you can switch between or can you use the two modes in parallel?

Complicated thing, tons of questions arise.

Originally Posted by mdp

EDIT: the scheme you provided does not fit with the model. It is like this instead:

COMPUTER ---- (HDMI) ---> TABLET
POWER ------- (USB) ----->

When you connect a plain monitor, you have this:
COMPUTER ---- (HDMI) ---> MONITOR
and the monitor has a separate power cable.

This works with Max2 Pro also? I.e. HDMI is one hole and there is a different hole for charging that can be plugged in at the same time?

Usually with tablets and smartphones and such, they tend to have a combined port for data transfer and charging. Sometimes they ingeniously work together - connect your phone to computer to transfer files and it incidentally is charging at the same time.