KFX Format - Page 20

badgoodDeb · 12-01-2015, 07:35 PM

I never pay attention to the margins. I'm reading the words in my very absorbing books!

Notjohn · 12-02-2015, 09:37 AM

Wait a minute -- are you guys saying that if we don't specify a margin our text will go edge to edge, on some Kindle devices anyhow? I've never seen that. I've always thought the margins were over-generous on my Fire tablets and plenty big enough on my iPhone.

Notjohn · 12-02-2015, 09:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jhowell

ETA: As can be seen later in this thread some books I am unable to download in KFX format are specific to my account because I bought them previously. I will need to rethink my analysis of this.

The reason I replaced my Fire tablet was precisely to see how auto-hyphenation worked on my books, all of which I had previously purchased. I haven't checked all of them, but all of those I Delivered to the new tablet (and that had Enhanced Typesetting Enabled) did indeed show the hyphens. So I think it's device-specific and has nothing to do with previous purchase. (I buy all my books as soon as they are published.)

I haven't noticed any other changes. If there's kerning, it's too subtle for me, or else I just haven't gone deep enough or wide enough.

jhowell · 12-02-2015, 10:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Notjohn

I haven't checked all of them, but all of those I Delivered to the new tablet (and that had Enhanced Typesetting Enabled) did indeed show the hyphens. So I think it's device-specific and has nothing to do with previous purchase. (I buy all my books as soon as they are published.)

I think that you are just lucky (or perhaps I am unlucky) that all of your previously purchased Enhanced Typesetting books, that you have tried, have downloaded in the new format so far. I am quite sure that some of my books required an updated version to be manually pushed by Amazon CS before they would download as KFX. I even went so far as to register my device under a different account and purchase the same book again to verify that it wasn't just the device.

In the end about 1% of my older purchased books required help from Amazon for me to get the latest version.

ETA: It appears that notjohn used "my books" to refer to books he has published, while I assumed it to mean books he has purchased.

Rizla · 12-02-2015, 11:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by eschwartz

Feature creep, anyone?

Adding features for the sole justification that "why not add it, people don't have to use it" is a terrible idea.

Like x-ray and speed-reading? But you can't lower the margins or add custom fonts, or a bolded caecilia? This is just silly and obviously so. I don't know why you defend it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by HarryT

Amazon want to give people a good reading experience. Having no margins is a terrible idea typographically - when did you ever see any printed work that had no margins? Margins are there for a good reason.

E-readers are NOT printed pages, and as evidenced by the following posts, users do want to have the OPTION to reduce margins.

eschwartz · 12-02-2015, 12:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rizla

Like x-ray and speed-reading? But you can't lower the margins or add custom fonts, or a bolded caecilia? This is just silly and obviously so. I don't know why you defend it.

I'm not sure what you are trying to say.

All I said was that adding features solely because "why not, you don't have to use it" is a bad idea.
I assume X-Ray and speed-reading were NOT added for that reason, but rather because Amazon thought it was an attractive enough feature to justify adding it.

I don't know why you think I am fighting against the idea of margins and fonts. Personally, I am disappointed that Amazon thought speed-reading was more valuable than margins and fonts.

I just don't think Amazon is deliberately acting with the intent of making their ereaders less attractive to their target audience (everyone)
I am not all that sure that their effect is that, either. Kindle owners who want fonts and margins will still buy Kindles and Kindle books, apparently. And the legions of 5-books-a-year readers are also a significant part of Amazon's target audience. And they are probably a whole lot more impressed with speed-reading than I am.

Choice rules. You want margins and fonts, buy a Kobo. If Amazon thinks they can snag a meaningful number of Kobo users by adding fonts and margins, they will do it.
I use neither, and frankly, on a personal level, I care about neither. I'm happy as is.
And it seems that Amazon thinks there are more of me than there are of you.

Quote:

E-readers are NOT printed pages, and as evidenced by the following posts, users do want to have the OPTION to reduce margins.

As evidenced, a vocal minority of users on MobileRead do want to have the OPTION to reduce margins.
I have not seen any evidence, on MobileRead or off MobileRead, that users in general do want to have the OPTION to reduce margins.

HarryT · 12-02-2015, 12:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by eschwartz

Choice rules. You want margins and fonts, buy a Kobo. If Amazon thinks they can snag a meaningful number of Kobo users by adding fonts and margins, they will do it.
I use neither, and frankly, on a personal level, I care about neither. I'm happy as is.

We are perhaps a self-selecting sample population, though. If you or I cared passionately about margins and fonts, we'd probably be in the Kobo forum right now saying how much better our Kobos are than those horribly limited Kindles

.

eschwartz · 12-02-2015, 01:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HarryT

We are perhaps a self-selecting sample population, though. If you or I cared passionately about margins and fonts, we'd probably be in the Kobo forum right now saying how much better our Kobos are than those horribly limited Kindles

.

Exactly.

Amazon has a specific appeal, and they seem confident that that appeal is the best way for them to maximize their customer base.

badgoodDeb · 12-02-2015, 04:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Notjohn

Wait a minute -- are you guys saying that if we don't specify a margin our text will go edge to edge, on some Kindle devices anyhow? I've never seen that. I've always thought the margins were over-generous on my Fire tablets and plenty big enough on my iPhone.

No, they aren't saying that. They are saying that some people WANT that, and cannot get edge to edge text.

Fbone · 12-02-2015, 06:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HarryT

At present that, true, yes, although I would expect KFX support to be added to these applications shortly.

Or discontinue them altogether.

AnemicOak · 12-02-2015, 08:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fbone

Or discontinue them altogether.

Can't see that happening at this point. I forget where it was, but I remember reading that desktop/laptop reading was a pretty good chunk of overall ebook use still. I suppose they could just expect everyone to use the cloud reader, but they'd need to do some work to improve it first.

tomsem · 12-02-2015, 09:56 PM

I would just like to point out that there are at least 3 distinct KFX 'formats': Kindle (newer ones only), Fire/Android (which may or may not be the same), iOS. These are the platforms which currently support 'advanced typography'. If and when they roll AT out to Windows, Windows 10, Windows mobile, Mac OS, expect to see more 'formats'. 'Format' isn't the word I'd use for this. 'KFX container' might be better, as long as it is understood that it differs from platform to platform and not something portable between them.

While I think there is a strong probability that AT books will remain undecode-able from the containers delivered wirelessly, I would not expect the download from Manage Your Content and Devices to change, unless they add yet another format and create tools to generate that. 'Kindle Format' is what the various Amazon publishing tools generate, also what one can download from MYCAD for side-loading, and not what lands on the device wirelessly.

'KFX' just represents the latest development in a series of features which are provided by the reading ecosystem, and not inherent in the original content. Everything from annotations to xray to page numbers, some features of enhanced typography and continuing with Word Runner. It represents a break only in the sense that prior to this, there was something downloaded to the Kindle that you could pull off possibly 'disinfect' and convert to something else. Have we ever been able to do that with the Fire or mobile apps? Only with the desktop apps and Kindles, right?

Kobo's 'kepub' is similar in intent, though not in implementation details. Google inserts a bunch of tagging into the PDF and ePub files to enable switching between reflowable and original pages in the reading apps and whatever container exists on device is nothing like an ePub/PDF file: it's probably some HTML blob (you can start reading before it has downloaded completely). iBooks and Nook platforms seem to be the only major platforms where what the content downloaded wirelessly bears some resemblance to the ePub file the publisher submitted (and that's just a guess).

AaronShep · 12-03-2015, 12:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Notjohn

The reason I replaced my Fire tablet was precisely to see how auto-hyphenation worked on my books, all of which I had previously purchased. I haven't checked all of them, but all of those I Delivered to the new tablet (and that had Enhanced Typesetting Enabled) did indeed show the hyphens. So I think it's device-specific and has nothing to do with previous purchase. (I buy all my books as soon as they are published.)

If you published the book, bought it, and never submitted a revision, then you would be able to download the book with Enhanced Typesetting after it was enabled. If you published the book, bought it, and then submitted a revision BEFORE it got Enhanced Typesetting, then you'd have to have Amazon send you the revision before you could see it -- because the version you bought would NOT have been updated.

Notjohn · 12-03-2015, 06:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AaronShep

If you published the book, bought it, and never submitted a revision, then you would be able to download the book with Enhanced Typesetting after it was enabled. If you published the book, bought it, and then submitted a revision BEFORE it got Enhanced Typesetting, then you'd have to have Amazon send you the revision before you could see it -- because the version you bought would NOT have been updated.

Well, I'm batting 100 percent so far, if auto-hyphens are the test. I haven't opened them all, that's true.

(I generally do request that a revision be "pushed" to my archives.)

Notjohn · 12-03-2015, 06:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by badgoodDeb

No, they aren't saying that. They are saying that some people WANT that, and cannot get edge to edge text.

Thank you for that reassuring news!

12-02-2015, 09:56 PM	#297
tomsem Grand Sorcerer Posts: 6,950 Karma: 27060153 Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: USA Device: iPhone 15PM, Kindle Scribe, iPad mini 6, PocketBook InkPad Color 3	I would just like to point out that there are at least 3 distinct KFX 'formats': Kindle (newer ones only), Fire/Android (which may or may not be the same), iOS. These are the platforms which currently support 'advanced typography'. If and when they roll AT out to Windows, Windows 10, Windows mobile, Mac OS, expect to see more 'formats'. 'Format' isn't the word I'd use for this. 'KFX container' might be better, as long as it is understood that it differs from platform to platform and not something portable between them. While I think there is a strong probability that AT books will remain undecode-able from the containers delivered wirelessly, I would not expect the download from Manage Your Content and Devices to change, unless they add yet another format and create tools to generate that. 'Kindle Format' is what the various Amazon publishing tools generate, also what one can download from MYCAD for side-loading, and not what lands on the device wirelessly. 'KFX' just represents the latest development in a series of features which are provided by the reading ecosystem, and not inherent in the original content. Everything from annotations to xray to page numbers, some features of enhanced typography and continuing with Word Runner. It represents a break only in the sense that prior to this, there was something downloaded to the Kindle that you could pull off possibly 'disinfect' and convert to something else. Have we ever been able to do that with the Fire or mobile apps? Only with the desktop apps and Kindles, right? Kobo's 'kepub' is similar in intent, though not in implementation details. Google inserts a bunch of tagging into the PDF and ePub files to enable switching between reflowable and original pages in the reading apps and whatever container exists on device is nothing like an ePub/PDF file: it's probably some HTML blob (you can start reading before it has downloaded completely). iBooks and Nook platforms seem to be the only major platforms where what the content downloaded wirelessly bears some resemblance to the ePub file the publisher submitted (and that's just a guess). Last edited by tomsem; 12-02-2015 at 10:08 PM.

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12-01-2015, 07:35 PM	#286
badgoodDeb Grand Sorcerer Posts: 8,551 Karma: 64462893 Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Harrisburg outskirts Device: Palms, K1-4s, iPads, iPhones, KV, KO1	I never pay attention to the margins. I'm reading the words in my very absorbing books!

12-02-2015, 09:37 AM	#287
Notjohn mostly an observer Posts: 1,519 Karma: 987654 Join Date: Dec 2012 Device: Kindle	Wait a minute -- are you guys saying that if we don't specify a margin our text will go edge to edge, on some Kindle devices anyhow? I've never seen that. I've always thought the margins were over-generous on my Fire tablets and plenty big enough on my iPhone.

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