Forma New Kobo reader: The Forma/Shape

[MGlitch]

Originally Posted by Jason90

Here is a fourm thread detailing peoples issues with pwm on the iphone x,the first iphone to use pwm as a result of using a oled panel at 240hz.

https://forums.macrumors.com/threads...one-x.2085427/

Don't know where you got the 10% figure from as that thread would suggest a significant percentage experience problems associated with flicker/pwm!

No it would suggest people get eye strain looking at the iPhone X. It’s another leap to assume they’re all getting eye strain because of this PWM aspect. You’re taking user submitted data which has no control group or any actual structure behind it. Much like your poll here which assumes facts not in evidence (we’ve had several other users report they’re unable to reproduce this at all).

[CH23]

I don't think PWM is much of an issue for most people.

Chances are that you're using an (AM)OLED screen, and most if not all of these use PWM.

Then again, it's all about the frequencies. I don't think it's possible to determine the frequency without using an expensive camera that has shutter control?

[Jason90]

Originally Posted by MGlitch

No it would suggest people get eye strain looking at the iPhone X. It’s another leap to assume they’re all getting eye strain because of this PWM aspect. You’re taking user submitted data which has no control group or any actual structure behind it. Much like your poll here which assumes facts not in evidence (we’ve had several other users report they’re unable to reproduce this at all).

Sorry but your wrong,all samsung oled's use pwm at 240hz which is terrible for people sensitive to flicker and is so bad that if you read the iphone x fourm many people simple can't use the device for more than a few minutes without feeling the strain to their eyes and have had to return their devices.

PWM is display manufactors dirty little secret that causes countless people headaches and eye problems,it should of never of been allowed to be used in consumer devices!

Judging from the way the kobo screen flickers suggests to me it's doing it at alot faster than 240hz so maybe not as big of an issue than it first seems but the fact that it is flickering at all is enough to put me off i'm afriad.

[MGlitch]

Originally Posted by Jason90

Sorry but your wrong,all samsung oled's use pwm at 240hz which is terrible for people sensitive to flicker and is so bad that if you read the iphone x fourm many people simple can't use the device for more than a few minutes without feeling the strain to their eyes and have had to return their devices.

PWM is display manufactors dirty little secret that causes countless people headaches and eye problems,it should of never of been allowed to be used in consumer devices!

Judging from the way the kobo screen flickers suggests to me it's doing it at alot faster than 240hz so maybe not as big of an issue than it first seems but the fact that it is flickering at all is enough to put me off i'm afriad.

You can take off the tinfoil hat.

And really, no. I'm sorry but you just don't seem to get it. You're using random forum users to try and make a case for PWM being a widespread issue because those forum users get eyestrain when using an LED screen. There are numerous causes of eyestrain, even if you limit it to JUST when using an LED device. So sorry but your 'evidence' is junk.

Further, your claim that this is even a widespread issue with the Forma is junk. We've had more negative reports for this issue, that is people unable to reproduce the same results using the same methods than we have had positive ones. Your poll here is actually very expressive of that fact as is the thread itself.

I'm not saying PWM isn't an issue, nor that you don't suffer from it. However you have as of yet to give any actual evidence to back your suggestions up.

But lets assume you're right, that it's more than 10%,that it is essentially everyone. Given the number of iPhone and Samsung phones out there, likely hundreds of millions as the iphone x alone sold 52 million as of May of this year, you'd have to show way more people with this issue than you have. It would have caused a huge PR nightmare for Apple and Samsung, imagine if even 1/3 of the customers had this issue that's way too many potential returns for a single issue.

So, again, sorry, but you're wrong, and you're peddling junk science in your claims.

[Jason90]

Obviously as someone who has used phones and laptops in the past that had pwm and experianced issues with them i am keen on pointing out this issue wherever i see it.

PWM is known to cause people issues, anyone can search with google and find out what i'm talking about and weather or not what i'm saying is 'junk'.

All i will say ishttps://www.notebookcheck.net/ tests for pwm on all devices it reviews for a reason and it is the most popular laptop review website on the internet so that should tell people it's more of an issue than you believe.

One final point about the iphone thread,there is nothing intrinsic to oled that causes eye issues over lcd other than the fact almost all oleds use pwm such as the iphone x,if you actually read the thread i posted earlier you would realize the problem is pwm.

If Apple used pwm in say the iphone 8 or Xr you would see the same issues being reported but they don't because they don't use pwm so stop fooling people into thinking pwm isn't an issue when it is an awful technology that i repeat should of never of been used in retail products.

Think this will be my last post on this anyway as i don't want to come across as a kobo basher as i actually bought the device and love the feel of the forma but i couldn't stay silent on this issue when the sole reason in my view for an ereader is that is provides a comfortable book like reading experiance.

PWM doesn't effect everyone that's true but for those it does it's a nightmare,enjoy your day

[meeera]

Originally Posted by Jason90

PWM is known to cause people issues, anyone can search with google and find out what i'm talking about and weather or not what i'm saying is 'junk'.

Searching google also tells me that vaccines are evil and Elvis is alive and the earth is flat and people are being abducted by aliens daily and albino alligators are multiplying in our sewers. I searched Google Scholar and Pubmed, and came up with empty hands.

[Quoth]

PWM control of brightness has NO issues. Only low refresh rate / flicker. You are more sensitive to it in peripheral vision, or if you are not human, i.e. a Cavy (guinea pig) will may see TV and Cinema as separate frames. 24 fps (Cinema) is slightly flickery, but far better than 12 fps (the minimum for illusion of movement). Cinema has shown each frame twice (48 fps effective) probably before video recording existed. Early cinema was 16 to 24 (16 to save film). Modern cinema (film or digital) may show the 24 fps at 72 fps, and digital 48 fps at 96 fps.
100Hz or 120Hz PWM is very trivial, only really ancient LED clocks from 1980s dividing the 50Hz or 60Hz mains had any flicker (more from sequential access than PWM thus 8.3 fps or 10fps if there are 6 digits, but most only have 4 digits, so 12.5fps or 15fps. The 50Hz mains country models do look flickery if at the edge of vision as it's 12.fps).
Flicker from PWM is not an issue on anything made in last 40 years and powered from batteries! Even many 1970s calculators have no flicker. The multiplexing of a display is far worse than PWM controlled brightness, which is the WIDTH of a fixed frequency repeating pulse.
The eInk and related technologies are bistable, so unlike LED, VFD, OLED, true LED, Plasma etc it inherently only flashes at an update. All the other display technologies have an inherent built in refresh rate which is far more significant than PWM brightness control!

[rashkae]

Originally Posted by meeera

Searching google also tells me that vaccines are evil and Elvis is alive and the earth is flat and people are being abducted by aliens daily and albino alligators are multiplying in our sewers. I searched Google Scholar and Pubmed, and came up with empty hands.

You forgot that noise (audio) from windmills cause cancer.

PS. the cheap dimmable LED bulbs I got from Walmart have a clear and annoying flicker if I'm using it at reduced voltage. Very irritating.

[Thargor]

So do people recommend the Forma after a year or so of use? I've tried pretty much everything at this stage to resolve my Glo HD issues but I think it's pretty much done, I'm excited to try the Forma and the Origami covers look like they could be very handy on my travels aswell.

Does anyone have any issues with it that they consider a deal-breaker?

[ratinox]

Originally Posted by rashkae

You forgot that noise (audio) from windmills cause cancer.

PS. the cheap dimmable LED bulbs I got from Walmart have a clear and annoying flicker if I'm using it at reduced voltage. Very irritating.

Coming into this very late as I only just late last week ordered my Forma (32GB model). I have one bit of anecdote to add to this: multiple LED light sources can be problematic. If the PSM timing of a display is a multiple of the PSM timing of an ambient light, such as a 120Hz monitor and a 60Hz room light, then you can get viciously headache-inducing flickering on the display.

[davidfor]

Originally Posted by ratinox

Coming into this very late as I only just late last week ordered my Forma (32GB model). I have one bit of anecdote to add to this: multiple LED light sources can be problematic. If the PSM timing of a display is a multiple of the PSM timing of an ambient light, such as a 120Hz monitor and a 60Hz room light, then you can get viciously headache-inducing flickering on the display.

The frequency is about 1KHz. And it isn't really an LED issue. It is any flickering at the wrong speed. Flourescent tubes were know for the issue a long time before LEDs. As were CRTs. And the combination was bad. At 1KHz, the Forma should be beyond anything you an see and is unlikely to interact with anything in a bad way.

[lkmiller]

Originally Posted by Thargor

So do people recommend the Forma after a year or so of use? I've tried pretty much everything at this stage to resolve my Glo HD issues but I think it's pretty much done, I'm excited to try the Forma and the Origami covers look like they could be very handy on my travels aswell.

Does anyone have any issues with it that they consider a deal-breaker?

Had my Forma since it first came out and still very happy with it. Use it pretty much everyday.

[Kaysclie]

Originally Posted by lkmiller

Had my Forma since it first came out and still very happy with it. Use it pretty much everyday.

I am exceedingly happy to read this because I just now ordered my Kobo Forma and am looking forward to enjoying reading on it.

[mbovenka]

Originally Posted by lkmiller

Had my Forma since it first came out and still very happy with it. Use it pretty much everyday.

Same here. Very happy with my Forma.

[ratinox]

Originally Posted by davidfor

The frequency is about 1KHz. And it isn't really an LED issue. It is any flickering at the wrong speed. Flourescent tubes were know for the issue a long time before LEDs. As were CRTs. And the combination was bad. At 1KHz, the Forma should be beyond anything you an see and is unlikely to interact with anything in a bad way.

Yeah, 1KHz is far faster than most humans can detect under normal conditions. I'd forgotten about the flourescent tubes/CRTs interaction but same thing as I described, and avoided with very high frequencies.